Present and Future Breeding

Do you believe that breeding to older bloodlined stallions now available through Frozen Semen after death or high in age is worth it ?

What helps you choose a younger stallion of similar bloodines as compared to an older stud with like lines, but possibly closer “important” horses in the sire and dam lines.

Also when does a bloodline become outdated? With old stallions  and frozen semen available we can continue to go back and tap into those old lines, but when is it just not worth it to breed back to fourth or fifth generation horses?

I have come up with this far fetched question due to the fact that over the years I have seen many new and quality stallions begin breeding and doing well.  At the same time though there are still older and nice stallions available so I began wondering. And I think this question applies to all bloodines. Well I hope I made decent sense.



Adding links of other places I posted this for multiple views and opinions.

9 Responses to Present and Future Breeding

  1. RaeOfLight says:

    Do you subscribe to TMH? There’s an article in the current issue about the use of frozen semen. It’s currently available online. I was excited when I saw this article. But I’ll be honest, I was a bit disappointed when I read it. I have had conversations with some folks lately on this very issue, what are the pros and cons, etc. This article seemed more of a “lookee what we can do” type tone.

    There’s honestly a lot at play with this issue. On one hand the ability to retain frozen semen on a horse and then geld it can open up so many options. But on the other hand if a horse isn’t worth keeping as a stallion should you have frozen semen in the first place?

    I wish I had good answers to your questions about how far out you can go and expect a cross to work. Do we have any sport horse folks out there? The sport world and thoroughbred folks both take their bloodlines seriously. They have a lot of good information out there that can be extrapolated to any breed. Unfortunately I can’t remember where I’ve found it in the past. And interestingly, at least when it comes to thoroughbreds (not sure about sport horses) they don’t even allow fresh cooled, all registered foals must come from live cover.

  2. empressive says:

    I used to get TMH, but did not renew. I do like the idea of crossing back to Fav old stallions, but at the same time I’m very future thinking and will the influx of old help the breed or deteriorate it? I mean when do we decide that it’s time to move on? Granted of course there is only so much frozen from one horse available. There are also facts like the ever changing “type” of a horse that is fashionable for a time. I guess it could bubble down to what a specific person likes of course making my question sort of irrelavent. LOL

    Actually I did post this same set of questions on another board and plan to post on Chronofhorse as well. If you don’t mind my putting up a link I’d be glad to share.

  3. RaeOfLight says:

    Link away!

    I will say, on a personal note. I do think it’s nice to infuse some of the older blood. It is next to impossible to find a Morgan these days that doesn’t have a cross back to Waseeka’s In Command. Now, I’m not saying he wasn’t a good horse, but everything in moderation. One of the ways we can bring back some of that old blood is through now deceased stallions. That’s one big appeal for me.

    But, on the other hand. Is fresh cooled/frozen one of the big reasons why there’s so much inbreeding these days? Is it the problem or the solution?

  4. In the law of inheritance, there is a doctrine called the Rule Against Perpetuities. It basically says that dead people cannot continue to govern what the living decide to do beyond a certain period. In other words, you cannot tie up your estate forever.
    Maybe we need a Rule Against Perpetual Stallions in the Morgan breed to give the young stallions a chance to establish their own reputation. Some of the old bloodlines were heavily inbred at the time. To keep breeding them back in with their get, grand get, etc., using frozen semen, is just courting problems down the road. There are about 7 stallions (living and dead) that currently dominate the show ring. While those bloodlines can produce beautiful foals, I still think a breed that boils down to that few lines is heading for a real problem down the road, particularly as we do not have an objective standard of performance, like the Thoroughbred breed. Look at the problems they have with feet and legs and temperament and all they care about is how fast they can run. They send the losers out the door, a harsh economic fact. What are we going to do with our rejects? We can only dump a limited number on the Amish.

  5. sportymorgan says:

    I think the show breeders need to expand their horizons when looking for stallions. There are Lippitts, sport-bred, Foundation, etc. and they are not all “dumpy little ponies.” By definition they are not going to have any of those 7 popular stallions in their pedigrees. Some of the Sport Morgans do, but it is in small doses. My sport Morgan doesn’t have any of the popular stallions in her pedigree.

    I heard a breeder once say he was glad that Lippitts were still bred, because that way one could outcross to them to get good Morgan type. But he said he’d never actually do that, because the resulting F1 foal wouldn’t have much value in the show ring and would make his program “look bad.”

    Sometimes I feel like there are two parallel worlds here “and never the twain shall meet.” A breed show world that focuses on high stepping, HOT, tall horses who often are quite Saddlebred-y in character and looks, and a sport/pleasure/trail world focused on the customer who wants to do things with their horse without having to have it at an expensive trainer’s. I would never have considered purchasing a Morgan if not for the latter group.

  6. sportymorgan says:

    For Rae: only thoroughbreds still require live cover. The other sport breeds like WBs do not.

  7. sportymorgan says:

    Also, oddly enough, the TB world is very resistant to inbreeding. A horse with the same stallion or mare appearing twice in its 5-generation pedigree would be considered inbred. This has changed a bit with the emphasis on speed horses, to the detriment of the breed. But live cover means that the percentage of stallions used is much higher and they come from diverse bloodlines.

  8. empressive says:

    I placed two links at the bottom of the original
    Posts. Both have some interesting answers.

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