Anyone want to talk about the judging at New England this year? Would love to hear your comments?
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Not having been there, but judging by the proofs, many seemed over flexed (nose behind vertical), on the forehand, or strung out. What was your take on it.
okay so my trainer took a hunter into one class and totally should have won it…awsome awsome ride…nothing bad…perfect trainstions…got placed like 6th…and then the owner takes the SAME EXACT horse into the youth class and wins the qualifier…….i dont get it…the judging wanst great this year…..no matter what the seat.
Once I calm down and can be rational about what I say I will be happy to give my take……
I have to say that I was not all-out outraged like I was last year. Last year the judging was highly political and the judge ignored people he didn’t know. People can challenge that observation but that doesn’t matter; I stand by it and I could find AT LEAST 50 others who would too.
But back to this year. Although it was not horrid, I was kind of confused sometimes. In many of the classes I agreed or could see why the judge pinned it the way they had. But there were others that I couldn’t see so much.
No Kidding- I know the horse you’re talking about. A mare? I agree with you, I saw the class that she pinned low in and was a little confused because she has been doing well this season and the caliber of horses in there were not as high as they were in the youth, which she won. Pretty mare but I’m not sure I would have pinned her first in the youth, probably in the other class, but not youth. So that was weird, because it wasn’t like the judge just didn’t like her because he later had her win.
Also, the youth hunter championship. The horse that won is adorable, a little petite for youth and not huge moving, but pretty and consistent; so that I get. But, some of the other high placings in it I was not as keen on. I don’t want to name names because whenever anyone does that, people on here get upset, but all I’ll say is that there were 25 beautiful, high quality entries in the youth championship and I DID NOT agree with all of the pinnings…
I saw first direction of the 16-17 hunter championship, but some friends came along for second direction so I was a little distracted and could have missed things, just a disclaimer. I’m going to drop a name just because there’s no other way to do it really but, MEM Once Again is beautiful and won the 16 year old qualifier- so obviously the judge recognized the talent there, so why didn’t he win the championship? I’m not sure if something happened, maybe he was naughty or something- does anyone know? because I don’t mean to be blunt or rude but I feel like there were great entries in that class and the only way the horses that won would’ve won is if the better entries…messed up. Sorry if anyone is offended- these are just my thoughts!
And why the heck didn’t Graycliff Tony win the Eng. Pl championship???!!!! He’s gorgeous!! Not tha Cartier isn’t beautiful too, but Tony is fantastic and far more consistent.
Another thing that bugged me was the fact the Larry Bonnell only watched the grandstand side of the arena, he never turned around and rarely looked at the corners. He really just stayed in one spot and didn’t care if something happened behind or to the sides of him. In my opinion that’s disrespectful.
But I did like how the horses and riders were put through there paces in some of the classes, that was nice to see.
Just my two cents everybody!!
I too was upset that a couple of my favorite horses MEM Once & Again and Graycliff Tony were not pinned first. Unfortunately I was not there to see the winners. Cartier is a beautiful animal also and I am not familiar with the winner of the 16 and 17 hunter championship. I just know that I would love to ride Once and Again, what a great solid gelding. Tony literally takes my breath away and I think Dawn Fire is the luckiest gal I know. :>)
Congrats to all the nice horses, I am sure the judges had their hands full.
Just to set the record, MEM Once Again had a better class in the championship than in the qualifier. He was perfect in the championship. I did not get to see Graycliff Tony in the championship, but agree that he is magnificent.
Hm, then that makes things VERY strange and confusing.
Sammy M – Larry BONNELL was an exhibitor, Larry BOLEN was one of the judges.
oops- my mistake!
Ok, I bit off the subject but has anyone seen Larry Bolen’s young stallion, Cedar Creek Flambeau?? There is another horse I would LOVE to own. He is going to do big things, I predict (in my very humble opinion). :>)
I will also have to say Larry Bolen is a great judge, very fair.
I agree this year’s panel was not at all political, (and last year’s was the most political I have ever seen). Kudos to Larry Bolen for not pinning an unsound horse – some trainers whose horses win all the time did not have a good show under him, because the horses are not sound. Ann seemed to get lost with the large classes – her pinnings were all over the place if the class had more than 10 entries (jr exhibitor and ladies classic especially). I didn’t always agree with Todd’s pinnings, and it drove me crazy that he judged only 20% of the ring (he missed mistakes on some of his top horses), but I thought each judge gave each exhibitor a fair look and overall did a good job. I didn’t pin that well, but I don’t feel like I got robbed either.
I saw the youth hunter pleasure class and thought it was one of the nicest classes I have ever seen – there was not one horse that was less than spectacular. I liked the winner, but I thought there were other horses that had better and bolder extensions, particularly since this was a youth class, but the winner had a beautiful ride and since Todd was only judging one corner she had good solid passes where she needed to.
On a separate note, the show management did an amazing job keeping up with the rain and getting all but a few sessions in the grandstand ring!
Did anyone realize that the top 3 in the Youth Hunt championship were all from the same barn? Supposedly a barn on very friendly terms with the judge? I’m just repeating what I’ve heard, not at all sure of the truth or validity.
I don’t mean to make any waves but yes, Karen C, I too noticed that right off the bat and I’ve also heard the same piece of information as you.
I was a little suspicious of that, especially because 2 of those top 3 are not normally stand outs in competition and have been beaten by less competetive mounts than the high caliber ones that show at NEMHS in youth and junior exhibitor hunter pleasure.
I have absolutely no ill will towards the people under the stable we’re referring to, I think they are wonderful people who love their wonderful Morgan horses. But it was a little curious to see horses under her which usually do not pin high at normal shows, win at this very prestigious one.
I wasn’t at New England, but looked over the proofs and results. Some of the horses winning were surprising. Like someone else said, there were alot of new faces taking victory passes, even though they’ve been out there the whole year. I guess without seeing the live action I can’t say much more. Sometimes its nice to finally get recognized, and not just watch horses get pinned because of their names.
PS. I LOOVE Larry Bolen’s new stud. Anyone know if he has an open book? Or any other good info about him?
I think its great about what happened in the youth hunter class. What a fantastic accomplishment for that barn!! Kuddos to them for having the peak of their season at the regional show. Jut because they have not done as well at previous shows does not at all mean they didnt deserve the highest placings. Furthermore, I realised that not all of the riders from that particular barn did well/got called back. So I dont think there should be any suspicions. Also, the rider who got reserve in that class WON the 16-17 champ… so not out of the blue really. I guess alot of people here agree Once Again should hav won, but the winner won her qualifier too, and the reserve in the 16-17 class got 2nd to Once AGain, so I guess I am missing the confusion about why those two horses (again from that same barn…WOW!!) got 1 and 2. It is not at all strange for a horse to win the qualifier and the champ.
Furthermore, I do not think the barn/trainer is on “very friendly terms with the judge”… those hunter classes were really the only ones who did consistantly well from that barn.
On another note, what are peoples thoughts on that $10,000 amateur western class??
i would like to know what everyone thinks about the amateur western pleasure championship too. i loved the extensions! i think that really set some horses apart from others. deep class too!
shakemup-
Although I agree that it is always nice to see a normally overlooked but deserving entry win or do well in a class, I do not agree that some of those entries from that barn were the best, or the deserving victors.
Your last sentence (not the western am. one), is saying that those horses do consistently well? I’m not sure if you were saying that, or you were saying that they were doing well at just this year’s New England. But I go to all of the shows on the East Coast and have been for quite a while, and those entries that we’re speaking of do not do consistently do well at shows. And I do not believe that it is because they are not “big names” because a couple of those horses are in fact big names and the barn itself is a big one.
I do not mean in any way to be insulting to those entries, there is nothing wrong with them. They were quite simply (in mine and others’ opinions) not the best in the classes.
No one is saying that just because someone has not done well in the past means that they should not win in the future. That just doesn’t make sense. What we’re saying in this case is that there is a reason that those entries didn’t do consistently do well in the past and it is odd that, even though there was no change in the appearances and performances of said entries, they still pinned significantly higher than normal at a highly prestigious show in classes deep in entries that were of much higher quality.
Of course I didnt mean to slight your (or others) opinions!! Sorry if I did! I too think it is surprizing that they all did so well all of a sudden. I guess I just dont want their accomplishments to be overlooked all because some might think that it was just because they are with that barn. I dont want the jr exhibitors of the shows to get sucked into all that political junk that goes on.
Oh and you are correct about my last sentance, I was meaning doing well all week at this years New England show, not the whole season.
I do agree with those people who have mentioned how some judges did not look around one bit. A terrible way to be an thurough judge! Many many horses (who won) certainly lucked out this year!!!
I am not sure I liked all the extensions in that western class. the extended lope seemed unecessary. I dont think a horse should pin above another just because it can extend in a western class. It is certainly not a priority for many trainers to make sure their horse can extend at the normally slow and collected jog and lope. But I suppose it is going to have to become one.. .I have seen it alot this season. I wonder why though? Also, its just not pretty usually. Some riders can certainly pull it off, but others dont know how to sit it, which detracts from the horse, even if he is doing his job. Nothing against those riders though! It must be hard as heck to sit the extensions in a western saddle with one hand!
“Some riders can certainly pull it off, but others dont know how to sit it, which detracts from the horse, even if he is doing his job. Nothing against those riders though! It must be hard as heck to sit the extensions in a western saddle with one hand!”
It isn’t hard to do if (a) you have a good balanced seat to begin with AND (b) you are doing true extensions, not just going faster. So often you see the gaits are not extensions, they just have more speed…that is when some riders get into trouble…especially those that aren’t conditioned to ride speeds other than jog and lope.
The extensions do tend to show which horses that have progressed the most in their training programs, as it did last year at OKC in the Open Champ. Those that were younger or hadn’t progressed past the basics got into trouble…and it began when they came in the ring and immediately reversed the class. I didn’t see New England, so I can’t comment on the placings.
How about that Senior Saddleseat Eq Champ? I saw the winner come up on the wrong diaganol, but she beat a good group of riders, and a few had perfect patterns/beter than hers.
Also, did anyone see the 3 yr old park horse… Dragonsmede Warlock or War-something. He won the S&G qualifer but didnt show back. Wonder why? Any thoughts on him??
the senior saddleseat eq champ was foolish, second place had that class hands down she should have won without a doubt in my mind. how can you win if you pick up the wrong diaganol?
and that dragonsmeade horse (i believe we are speaking of the same one… with the mexican rider?) i heard it sold but i dont know why he didnt show it back… odd.
The trainer of the 3 yr old park horse also showed a 4 yr old park horse. He showed the 4 yr old back in the championship.
yeah i agree!!! i didnt even have the winner in top 3!! her rail work wasnt even a stand out.
do you know who the warlock horse sold to? i bet he went for a ton of money… as dragonsmeade horses tend to do hahaa. did you see his qualifier? i missed it and was hoping to see the champ, but the trainer rode another horse! is he nice?
“It isn’t hard to do if (a) you have a good balanced seat to begin with AND (b) you are doing true extensions, not just going faster. So often you see the gaits are not extensions, they just have more speed…”
I have to comment on the above. I totally agree. This was something that I noticed in the Friday night Ammy Hunter Championship. There was one horse that knocked my socks off when the extended trot was called for. Instead of going around the ring going faster. This horse was extending from the shoulder and reaching under himself in text book fashion. My friend and I were just amazed. The horse left the ring that night with nothing but my desire to take him home.
On a Park Saddle note, I was amazed that I was on the money calling the ribbons for the junior horse championship – again, on Friday. The Champ and Reserve were so well balanced on all four corners. Nothing being left behind, off beat or uneven. Nice to see.
definitly agreed, she was the only one who did the pattern and messed up. like wrong diaganol in senior eq and she wins thats so outrageous that its almost funny. how many did they call for the pattern like four? i thought reserve should have won and the girl that won i would have given fourth. so crazy.
i just asked a friend about the park saddle horse and he believes it sold for 50,000 with like a co ownership both people at the same stable.
did everyone agree that the horse that won the amateur western pleasure championship should have won??
wow they’re lucky. i heard alot of people wanted to buy him at the show.
Going back to the Western Amateur Champ, wasnt Trebles Tanqueray in the class and get nothing in both the champ and the qualifier? Wow…. did the judge just not like him? Anyone have any insight on that?
NEO009, i thought that winner had a nice ride and i like her horse but i think it might have been a little lame. i mean $10,000 tho, damn shes lucky.
startlovin, yeah i noticed that. the judge must have not liked him he was pretty hot for the first class and i noticed the judge didnt really switch around the cards much.
yeah he was definitely hot the first class hahaa. guess hes not with judy nason anymore, huh.
NEO009 – i thought it was a pretty good ride, but the horse didnt stand out to me as an amateur horse. not very flashy compared to alot of other ones. it was a clean, solid ride though, which is obviously what the judge was looking for, but i see him more as a ladies or youth/jr ex horse. but congrats to them!!! what a class to win!! must have been so exciting!!!!
I just wanted to start out by saying that over all I thought the judging was pretty good this year, while there were some classes I may not have tied the same way, that is my opinion and being in the ring and standing on the rail are two totally different perspectives.
I thought the 3 year old Dragonsmeade horse was outstanding, he did sell to two customers of Judy Nason’s. Very lucky buyers if you ask me!
In regards to the SR. EQ class, there were several riders that made mistakes in there pattern, including the 2nd place. While not visiable to the box seat side of the ring, she came back from her pattern with only one stirrup. Other riders also came up on the wrong diaganol in the pattern. Just some observations, I thought it could have gone either way.
I give the judges props for not pinning well known horses just because they were well known, they did not happen to be the best in that class and the judging reflected that.
lilbit – i am so with you on the judging. i was impressed at how (for the most part) the classes were judged based on their performance at that moment and not their show record.
but in the eq class.. if the reserve lost a stirrup but the box seat side couldnt see, how could the judge?? but maybe it could be seen swinging or something from the ground… interesting…
startlovin, I’m not sure the hunt judge actually pinned based on performance; neither did he pin based on “well known” horses. There were many “well known” hunt horses in the jr. exhibitor and youth classes and they performed better than the ones who placed well. My biggest complaint is that he was so inconsistent on what he supposedly liked. Maybe he doesn’t know what he likes? LOL
thats why i said for the most part. haha
As I knew it would this topic has come up again this year. I agree it was not political. I heard good and bad about Ann and Larry and all not good about Todd. As a Mom of an awesome team (biased I am) that Todd judged in four classes (two she messed up in front of him, two were incredible rides) out biggest issue is his consistency. He was all over the place, sometimes not even watching. He had her on his card in the class she messed up in, when she did he shook his head and clearly scratched her off his card. So why when she has an even stronger, steadier, bolder ride in a split class (he should be able to see 12 horses) does she not even make the call back?? We will never know I guess. And I saw others who had rock solid rides not get pinned either, so please know I am not taking just about us. We had alot of this happen with our other hunt seat riders also. I do realize the view is different from where the Judge stands. And he was also calling for these not normal transitions in a class of 20, how can one person see 20 horses go from the trot to the canter? This brings us back to the same thing as last year, we need MORE than one judge at NE to judge these classes. They are almost as big if not the same as Nationals correct? Jdenzel, your daughter and her horse are awesome, and from what I saw had great rides, be happy she ribboned with how things went this year. For us it was disappointing, last year 4 classes and 4 ribbons, this year a much, much stronger team and zilch. Try to keep in perspective this is one persons opinion, that is what we are trying to do.
I couldn’t agree more. A show of this caliber needs more than one judge for a class. We too saw many horses we felt were being ignored. Strong rides, excellent horses with no ribbons. There was absolutely no consistency to his judging and I do wonder how well he actually knows hunter pleasure. Oh well, another year………….Just my opinion.
again, i couldnt agree more. i wonder how much he actually knows specially since its rumored that he drives a school bus for a living ;]
horseluver1989 – not really sure what having a job outside the horse industry has to do with how much one knows…
Todd has been in the horse breeding/showing/training business for most of his life, and he’s judged GN twice. He’s shown horses to Regional and National titles, and his mother has shown some very nice hunters to major wins.
One can agree or disagree with how he judged (I’ve never seen him judge, so have no opinion on that), but I don’t think he’s lacking knowledge of the breed or of the disciplines he was judging.
Horseluver1989 that is rather elitist statement. Most horse business’ run on a tight profit margin, so if they can fit in why not. Actually, it would be a perfect job! Also, CDL’s are required to drive a horse trailer for business purposes so why not take advantage of an opportunity to offset the cost by using it for another purpose, like a school bus driver. Anyone who can control a bus load of rowdy children gets bonus points in my book.
Sting, of the Police, was a bus conductor at one point…does that indicate that he doesn’t know a lot about music???
Todd liked what he liked, whether you agreed with his opinion or not. He judged a small portion of the ring, and the horses he pinned had good passes in front of him, so regardless of what they did the other 80% of the time, he didn’t see it. That was my only complaint about him. If you view the results he was pretty consistent.
I don’t buy the fact that the 3 top Youth hunters were only pinned that way because of a friendship – the trainer for those top 3 riders did not pin well at all when she herself showed under him, and she normally wins everything – especially in the western division. I think you are taking away from these riders and horses, I believe the winner of the Youth class is a new team this year (it normally takes a few shows with a new horse to start to be at the top of the cards, so the fact this team may not have done as well at the beginning of the year has little relevance).
Kind of a mean comment was made about Tanguary’s owner. I personally thought he looked great when I saw him – softer and he didn’t march as much as he usually does. I imagine he is not an easy horse to show, and she has done well with him at other shows this year – I think she should be commended for doing it on her own:)
I would love to see New England have a two or three judge panel – it is a huge, expensive show, and it would eliminate so many issues!
With that many horses in a class I would think the judge would get dizzy if they tried to look at a larger portion of the ring. At the very least it would be too difficult to tell all those bays apart, if the judge is trying to look around. If they won’t get a multiple judge system then why not split the classes more.
As an amateur owner training and showing my horse for the first year there is always a learning curve because they do stuff or don’t do stuff in the ring that they do or don’t do at home.
The trainer who rode Dragonsmeade Warlock is Selvin Torrez. He did an outstanding job with that park horse, to me that 3 yr old was probably one of the most fantastic horses at New England this year.
As for the judging, i believe it was as fair as it could have been, across the board. It was much different than last year. I saw a few classes that should have went different ways but thats just my opinion and I certainly too, would like to see New England turn into a 3 judge panel show.
As for Tony, what an unbelievable performance but why is Dawn showing him Open?
Judges cant win no matter what they do…if he was constantly turning around everyone would complain that he missed all the good passes right in front of him. I thought there were a lot of classes that could have gone differently. As for the youth hunter class, i had two of the top three picked!
I remind my husband all the time, we are paying for a person’s opinion when we go to a horse show. We have a system set up to train our judges, and we except that they are qualified to judge when they get their card. We are all individuals, and there for we have different opinions. I have shown under all three of these judges, and have found them to be fair in the past. That said I was not at New England, because it would cost me more to go there then OKC!! The easiest way to fix the problem is to have a three judge system, but with that comes added expense. So this goes back to you are paying for a person’s opinion when you go to a horse show…sometimes your the windshield…sometimes the bug!
Why is Dawn showing Tony Open?? Why not?! He can certainly do it well and why not challenge herself? Has an ama ever won the Open EP World Championship? I can’t think of one off the top of my head. I LOVE that she is stepping up to the bigger challenge (not that the ama division isn’t deep, because is certainly is!)! Go Dawn!!!
Stacy
I didn’t see Warlock, but noticed him in pics from an earlier show in the year. I inquired about him and thought he was very fairly priced for what he is! I wouldn’t hesitate to inquire on another Dragonsmeade horse based on the price I received…I thought he was a good deal and tried to get someone to buy him myself. Good for whoever was the smart one and did! Congratulations:):)
Stacy
First of all, WOW to some of the comments. And second of all, THANK YOU to some of the positive comments
We all love to show our Morgans and I try to keep it fun and take what I get. Every show you have a fresh chance. That’s why it’s so fun.
morgan8866 – I agree that the positive comments are more than welcomed. But, no one should take the WOW comments for more than what they are. This blog is here for all of us to voice our opinions and I think for the most part they are tastefully stated. For me the worst about New England was the inconsistency of the judging. It’s hard to come away learning anything if you’re not sure what you did right and what you did wrong. However, on the positive side, for all exhibitors who showed at New England, CONGRATULATIONS! Just getting there is a huge accomplishment. For all exhibitors who walked away with a ribbon, CONGRATULATIONS! You did it! You went to a huge show and placed! For those who feel they didn’t place as well as they should have….GET ‘EM NEXT TIME!
I would like to say that I wasn’t too pleased with how New England was judged this year. While some classes I believed were judged fairly, others….not so much. My main focus is on the huntseat classes.
1) AMHA Hunt Seat Medal on the Flat- I understand that judging a class where a majority of the horse/rider combinations look the same can be difficult, but I felt like the best riders in that class did not receive proper recognition. At the exit gate, I heard one girl say, “What did I do wrong?”, after having a great ride. Judging like that takes a toll on these young riders’ confidences. These kids can only hear the “you had a great ride, you just got screwed” speech so many times until it starts getting old.
2) Hunt Seat Pleasure 14-15 – Odd class to pick out, I know, but I just happened to see this one, and I saw one of the most beautiful huntseat morgans I have ever laid eyes on. I think they got second place? By what I saw, they should’ve won. Unlike a lot of horses, who when they extend, they just tend to speed up, there was a CLEAR distinction for this horse. The first place horse was spinning it’s tail the entire time… how is that deemed “pleasurable”?
I was not at NE but I’ve heard a couple of things several times and wanted to remind everyone of this. Someone said that a horse was OK in one class and did great and then had a way better class the next time and didn’t do as well…how can that be. Remember, it is not just you out there! What if, in the class the horse was OK in, the OTHERS were worse and in the class the horse was great in the others all stepped up and were better too? You have to remember that your ride is not just your ride being judged…it is your ride being judged against the other rides in that ring at that time. So…for the kid coming out asking what they did wrong…maybe nothing, you had a great ride…so did everyone…it was a great class and you got beat by great riders on some of their best days. Then later try to watch those riders and see what they do that might set them apart. I would agree that hearing “you had a great ride, you just got screwed” can only happen so many times, but, I don’t think it’s thier confidence that suffers, I think it will be their love of competition. Nobody is perfect…one can always improve. Take every ribbon, or lack of, as a challenge to get better for the next time. now, perhaps they did just get “screwed” but maybe “I’m not sure what the judge didn’t care for, but there are a few things we can work on to see if we can make them like you better” or…ask the judge after the show (hard at NE in hunt…SO many) but I do hate to hear of Jr riders being told they are getting screwed…just for the sake of the sport. JMHO,
Stacy