Conflicts of Interest???

Can anyone tell me the rules about trainers who judge, and managers who show? I know there is a time period that a trainer can’t judge a horse he has sold for a certain amount of time. I don’t know the rules at all about a show manager who also can show. Does the manager pick the judge? And doesn’t that put that person at a big advantage? Also, who assigns stabling at a horse show? I am trying to understand how/why some barns always get the same stalls, and others seem to get moved around a lot. Is it true that to get into the main barn at Oklahoma, all you have to do is write a check? How do you get good stalls at any show? So many questions!

22 Responses to Conflicts of Interest???

  1. colwilrin says:

    OK…I’ll take a stab at this one. LOL

    I’m not up on the USEF rules, so my thoughts on Show Managers comes from my experience. There are rules about show officials, and it is best to check with the rule book.

    From experience in the one Regional I worked on, there was a show committee that voted on the judges. All members of the committee were able to show at the regional. The show manager was separate from the committee. She was more like a “management service” that, to my knowledge, didn’t own Morgans.

    As far as stabling, that is trickier. Lord help those stabling managers. There is a definite pecking order. Those barns who have religiously patronized a show, year after year, will likely get the stalls they are accustomed to. Many of these barns will even have wood, custom cut to the area, to set up their displays. These are the barns that are the cornerstone of your show…DON’T MOVE THEM…they become upset, and will leave. If you don’t think so, just ask the Erie County Fair management.

    Next are the big barns that are not regulars. These barns bring 20 horses, and have people in every other class. If you want your show to bring in that huge chunk of change again the next year…keep them happy. They should be near the main ring. They have quick tack changes, and trainers with clients in the ring all day. They don’t have time to go trekking half way across the fairgrounds numerous times each session.

    Then there are the smaller barns and “little guys” (ie: bringing 6 or less horses). They are the “fillers”…they fill in spots around the big barns. These arrangements are more flexible and a person can help his own “place” at the show. If you want preferrence for a certain stabling area request, BE NICE…SPONSOR CLASSES…VOLUNTEER. If you have a legitimate reason to move (ie: you brought 3 studs, and the stalls in your barn have slatted walls) explain this NICELY to the staff. Better yet, if you know you are bringing 3 studs…send a letter with your entry requesting solid-walled stalls.

    It has been my experience that show management wants to help you, but that they can’t make everyone happy. They are more likely to make the extra effort for someone that is friendly and understanding.

  2. empressive says:

    Hey Prada,

    Colwilrin has it ‘nail on the head style’. Sometimes you cannot please everyone and in those situations when you rely heavily on the contributions of others you have to give them number one status.

    Otherwise there will be no show at all.

    People need to stop being so selfish and be thankful there is even a show for them to go too. Again like Colwilrin said if there is a problem that potentially could hurt the horse or person kindly talk to the management. Not everyone is out to get somebody and I revert ‘It is easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar’.

    Aren’t I just a touch for for old statements.

    I use this rule when talking to people I do not know on a personal level ‘heck use it with anyone you have interaction with at all. My actions and responses should reflect a business attitude with a touch of sales.

    As par the Judging. We can all only hope to improve but, we leave ourselve in the hands of a human being that makes mistakes. I just read something about judges being picked by a board of the association after the horse show board gives their recommendation (think that is how it went)

    Either way sometimes people like to help and show. My Mom helps all the time whereever she can and I do too. I show and hand out ribbons my Mom has even been ringmaster. And I repeat NEVER has she tried to engage the judge in conversation nor I. We did once talk about cookies. I draw the line there. (I like cookies)

    I think once at the end of the show when everyone one leaving I asked a judge on how I could improve on the learner horse and he said, “Get a better horse.”

  3. PrincessPrada says:

    Does being on a committee guarantee better stalls? And for Regional Shows and Oklahoma, can you write a check to get better stalls? If so, who do the checks go to and how much are we talking? And does a manager or show committee have the authority to let personal likes and dsislikes affect where she/they places certain barns? Who has the final say?

  4. colwilrin says:

    Oh…one little tip I forgot.

    For years, my friend and I showed our horses without being in a professional stable. We had certain other AOTS’s who we liked to hang out with at shows.

    If you are in that situation, get together with your friends and send your entries in the same envelope. You will then be a larger group of entries stabled together, and if you become regulars at the show, are more likely to keep the same stalls each year.

    Hey…and if you still have crappy stalls…sit back and have a cocktail and remember it could be worse…you could be at work!

    Horse shows are supposed to be fun, if they aren’t…a person needs to rethink what they enjoy as a hobby.

  5. colwilrin says:

    Prada,

    It’s just not that simple. The show committee, managers, volunteers, and host association members all help to run the show. There is usually a designated stabling manager who assigns stalls, but they work in conjunction with the committee. The goal is to keep prior patrons happy while attracting new competitors. The show wants to be both profitable and fun.

    If it were as simple as writing a check…there wouldn’t be enough “front row” stalls to go around. Stabling is a delicate task. For some unknown reason, horse people are very territorial about their show stalls and it can become the most contentious point of the show experience for some.

    As in my post above, keep your core people where they have always been…get the barns with numerous entries and possible scheduling conflicts close to the ring…and fill in with the rest.

    As far as a stabling managers dislikes dictating placement of stalls…well, I guess you could always try an experiment and see if you could tick one off bad enough to see if that would happen! LOL

  6. GoodLookinGal says:

    Well, I would have been a prime example for that test, Colwilrin, if I were going back to New England Regional this year, after all the b**chin I did to the committee last year! At least I am anonymous on this site. We will have to see if some of the others who did sign their names get “stabling demoted” this year at horse shows after pointing out some judging/management issues last year.

    Oh, and I do think it can be a conflict of interest for the same person to run the show that they compete in, but the only people who want to volunteer to run the show are the ones who want to compete in it. So what else can we do?

  7. JRae says:

    I believe the only managers that can not show at the show that they manage are dressage shows and events.

  8. Sue says:

    In my experience, the Show Managers do not show at the shows they are working (although there is no USEF rule prohibiting such) just due to the massive amount of time needed to manage a show. There is no time left to show!!! The show committees I have been on come up with names and an order of preference, that list is sent to the manager who does the actual contact with the Judges and does the hiring. That way, there is no way of questioning the eithics of any member of the committee who is showing.

    Stabling is a whole different issue. It never hurts to have a relationship with the person doing the stabling! LOL. Stabling is decided by so many factors; number of horses brought, length of committment to the show, activity with the committee, financial support to the show, and I think the most important is being a great exhibitor in the past. If you go in to the show with a holier than thou attitude, making demands and causing trouble with the manger you have to realize that this is NOT a good way to get premium stalls the following year. I remember one year at a local A multi breed show, I sent a note with my entries requesting the stalls I had the year before, this had never been a problem, so I just figured it was a done deal. (Now-I alays try to be nice to the office, send in my paperwork ahead of time, not request gate holds, the whole good exhibitor thing) so-I was really confused when I received a call from the manager telling me she wasn’t going to be able to give me the stalls I had requested, someone else was getting MY stalls. Needless to say my immediate reaction was disbelief, I fortunately held my tongue and very slowly said OKAAAAAAAAAAAY……where am I stabled, the manger then told me where I was-I wasn’t real happy although she assured me they were her personal favorite stalls. So I agreed, and just hoped for the best. Six years later those are now MY stalls. Best stalls in the barn as far as I’m concerned. So I have found from this experience is that most mangers, if they have to displace an exhibitor, try to make it up to them (at least long time exhibitors).
    I have seen stabling charts, and have seen the crazy requests people send in and it is a job I would never want to do. Show Managers really have to develop tough skin.

    I have heard that you can write a check to Grand National for better stabling, but I also know of instances where it hasn’t worked as the donor planned. If you look at a list of the exhibitors in Barn 1 (the super barn) at OKC you will notice that the barns are mostly, and I stress mostly-there are always exceptions, large barns with alot of horses, who have a tradition of decorating over the top and are also (or there clients are) large sponsors, so I think there are many factors involved and have attended the Grand NAtional for many many years. Lots of those barns have gone to Grand National for 20 or 25 or more years. My way of figuring it is that I’m a small fish, and a new exhbitor compared to others.

  9. PlayMorBill says:

    Got to babbling on a bit here… sorry. :)

    ===
    Chiming in on Judging

    We expect a high level of expertise and impartiality from our judges, yet we hand out judges cards like candy. It’s ridiculously easy to obtain a license. Heck, I could get card, and I’m no more of a judge then I am a stick horse. I’d spend all my time watching the top horses vie for the blue, and hand out the lower ribbons somewhat randomly.

    Unfortunately, this sounds vaguely familiar.

    There is movement twords improving the training of our judges, teaching them more about the mechanics and ethics that are best adheared to, but change comes slowly. Epecially when we spend our limited resources on lawyers rather then judges.

    We could save some money if we made our lawyers judge our shows for free. :)

    We are a small breed. Most of the judges that come from within our ranks have friends and foe, opinions and agendas. Those that come from outside our breed care for little more then status and a paycheck…

    …maybe a favor down the road.

    Back in the day when halter meant something more then just who had the best trot down the rail, a lot of the judges came from the ranks of the breeders. They were the ones who studied form and function. The goods breeders became so because of a critical eye for specific criteria. Their innate ability to cast aside opinion and agenda when evaluating a horse made them naturally good judges.

    They also understood that the choices they make in the ring will affect the choices show horse breeders make in the breeding shed.

    Today, trainers seem to dominate center ring. Many are also breeders, as they should be, but their primary job is training other people’s horses. The critical eye they use to sort a class is vastly different from the breeders. They often forgive bad function for pleasing form. They use conformation only when convenient in explaining their placings. Consciously or unconsciously, they bring agendas into the ring that leave many of us shaking our heads in confusion.

    What they’ve forgotten (or ignore) is that, first and foremost, a judge must be impartial. A good judge makes every effort to look at a class fresh each time the gate opens. Everyone starts for scratch. The blue is not a forgone conclusion.

    Next time you’re bored watching the 15th hunter class of the afternoon, watch the judge instead of the horses. If you see him snap his head around, almost giving himself whiplash, look to see where he was looking. You’ll probably see the top horse making a mistake. Today’s judges hate that.

    It messes up their card.

    That’s both lazy and counter-productive. They’re pretending something didn’t happen. This hurts the very industry they strive to succeed in. I say you can watch your top horse make a mistake and still pin that horse on top, if it was clearly the victor.

    There is an opposite end to that spectrum that, in my opinion, is even worse. We call it negative judging. This is where the judge finds the top horses in the class, then watches them almost exclusively, waiting for that one mistake so they can tie them down.

    Fortunately, these judges have been identified and are not so busy these days.

    I’m happy if I can at least follow a judge. I don’t have to agree with their opinion, but by the second day of the show, I should be tuned in to what they want. If I’m still shaking my head in wonder during the championships, then that judge is probably as lost as I am. This is to say they are not very good at their job.

    The last thing we want our horse shows to look like is a lottery. Or a Scam.

    Here’s my crazy idea for a fix:

    At OKC, I’d like to see a 4 score judging system. Three judges in center ring, plus every owner of a horse competing at that show gets a wireless voting gizmo. Owners who do not have a horse in that particular class select their top three horses on the voting gizmo. The owners votes would count for 25% of the score.

    Other then opening up a giant can of worms, both human and technological, this would serve three purposes. It would add an element of fairness to the placings. It would motivate owners to learn more about how to judge our breed in all classes and disciplines. And, most importantly, it would get people in the stands.

    I know, I know, my wife says that all the time (“You’re crazy”).

    My other latest invention is the One Stake Horse Show, which is a 3 day show where all performance qualifiers are the stakes for that division. Jr Horse, Jr Rider, Amateur and Open classs on day one carry with them the title of show champion for that division. Day 2 is Halter, trail, equitation, dressage and all the other misc. classes, followed by a really great party with a Hot Tub/Karaoke theme.

    Day 3 is short and sweet: A championship for each division (park saddle & harness, pleasure saddle & harness, classic pleasure & harness, hunter & western), with only the top 3 ribbons from each of day ones classes qualified to compete. All prize money is reserved for these 8 classes. 60% to first, 40% to second.

    Put your top few Jr horses, Jr & Amateur riders in there against the top few open horses and you will have energy and excitment, not to mention a legitimate claim for the winner as the true, Open Champion. Underdogs will be looking to upset the favorites. Kids will be riding against their trainers and maybe even their mom or dad. This creates a class within a class, which is always entertaining for the entire barn.

    I know my own kids salivated everytime they got to compete against my wife & I. It was kinda scary, and we put an end to it.

    :)

    Babbling complete.

  10. colwilrin says:

    The voting gizmo…it would be like American Idol! LOVE IT…I want to be Simon.

    I wonder how long it would take for someone to start a VFTWM (vote for the worst morgan)?

  11. jns767 says:

    This is so interesting to me. I must be in Lala land at the shows. It never even occured to me to get better stalls. Hilarious as it is, our stalls are generally at the back end of any random barn (farrrr from the ring), I love them because they’re at the very end so we can still decorate, and it’s peaceful for the horses. They can get the rest that they usually (don’t really need – I was bucked off at a show once – talk about embarrassing). Anyway, our barn usually only has 6 or less horses at a show, so it’s no big deal for us. Hmmm…I wonder if we’re on somebodies “bad exhibitor list”? Now that I think about it, we enter late – almost always – and we’re not regulars to any one show – hmmmmm……

  12. jns767 says:

    I really am the epitome of AmAtUaR LOL. (hope I spelled that right).

  13. morganrider says:

    Sometimes, I can follow the judging; often times I cannot. Are the judge’s score cards posted after the session? Do they comment as to why they mark up certain horses and mark down others? Yes, I’m a newbe.

    Why does it matter so much where the placement of your stalls are at a show (besides the obvious logistical stuff)? As long as you do your best, have good friends and family to cheer you on and have plenty of food from various sources why does it matter (unless of course the stalls are in poor shape, barn is too hot etc)? I know I probably sounds naive but seems just so not important in the grand scheme of things. Giving $$$ for better stall space – rather have a new bridle.

    I know it’s been suggested before but Mr. Bill you really should have your own column – maybe “Bill’s Blog”?

  14. Scottfield03 says:

    I would be a faithful participant on “Bill’s Blog” for sure!

    Just a comment on the thought above about Judge’s cards being viewed after the class. At OKC, you are able to see all three judges cards, and the show management is really good about getting them up quickly. It is very nice, indeed.

    I was attending a multi-breed show last year that featured an Arabian division along with Morgans, Saddlebreds, etc. While waiting in the show office for something, I looked over at the Judges cards from the Arabian halter classes and was really impressed. These cards were broken down to work on a rating system, with so many points, lets say for sake of argument, a scale of 1-10 for legs, one section for head and neck, one for type, one for way of going, and so on. It was really neat to see how the judge broke apart each horse, with notes, to come up with her final pinning. In addition to the obvious advantage to the owner of having insight into the judge’s thought process, it also occurred to me that it might actually be easier for the judge to sort out horses in this manner because it is so cut and dry. I do seem to remember one section that seemed to allow for personal taste, or something to that affect. I also wondered, though, if this score card system slowed down the judging of each class. I would imagine it would have to. Still, for me, especially where the In-Hand division is concerned, I wouldn’t mind having the class take a few minutes longer if the trade off was a very thorough evaluation that I could have access to later.

    In regards to show management, stabling and some of the other things being questioned throughout this post:
    For the people who attend the show…Be nice to the people in the office. Try to work with the management. For stabling, hope for the best, plan for the worst. I have found that those shows that I have attended for many years in a row are the ones that consistently improve my stabling situation. When I get a block that I love, I am sure to let the management know. So far, they have always given me those stalls the next year.

    To the Managers and Show Committees: Please try to understand that as the Trainer, I have to makes decisions about which shows to attend and why, and then be able to justify the expense to my clients. I think this is fair. If I were paying someone a lot of money to direct me in where to show, I would expect an explaination as to why. This also means that when I have a client that is unhappy about something, I have an obligation, I think, to voice those concerns on my clients’ behalf. I am not only the Trainer, I am the Barn Representative, and I represent my clients. I want my folks to be happy, and I think most show committees really do place a great deal of importance the kind of experience the exhibitor has. Good or bad, I think it is important that the management knows how things went on the exhibitors end of the horse show as well. In fact, I think it was a fellow blogger that I stopped in the Ladies room at OKC to tell her how much my group loved the super prizes at last year’s NY Morgan regional. :-) We will be back…. the little things do add up to make a big difference!!

  15. nightmusicfarms says:

    Interesting thread….

    A few comments.

    Good Lookin Gal:

    I always chuckle a bit when I see your “signature”. Like the NEMHS, I don’t know who you are, but I certainly assume you have a healthy self confidence. Personally, I pay far more attention to a person who is willing to identify and own their opinions and somehow I suspeft a show committee would as well.

    Bill, I agreed with much of your post and as always, enjoyed it. I do not agree, however, that breeders are in any sense more universally cognizant, impartial or informed than trainers. In fact, I think a tremendous amount of the presumed damage, lack of type and minimized emphasis of form to function can be laid solely at the feet of some of the larger and more powerful breeders.

    It is the breeders who produce the horses who go own to dominate our ranks. Do the judges further the domination by picking them? Of course. However, a well placed and powerful breeder can severely impact the breed for generations, be it for good or bad. Many of the most biased and partial people I know are breeders and often display an extraordinary disdain for any program or “look” other than their own or one closely related.

    I fully agree with you that we should have extremely high standards for our judges, but do not agree that we should discriminate based upon their discipline or livelihood. In fact, I am quite sure we have people in the breed who do not own, breed or train Morgans who would be exceptional judges, given the opportunity.

    The qualifications to become a judge should be rigorous and even more than that, the follow up to ensure that judging is educated, impartial and objective should be even more rigorous. I would like very much to see a qualified panel appointed which would routinely evaluate the performance of judges and provide timely, objective, fact based feedback to both the judges and to the show which hired them. This would help maturing judges learn their craft and those who have become either biased or unduly influenced drawn up short and forced to “clean up their act” if they wished to continue.

  16. Scottfield03 says:

    Nightmusic:
    It is nice to hear that you appreciate a signature to a post. I have always used this screen name, and even though it is not my name, like yours, it easily identifies me. With that said, I have gotten a lot of heat for some of my past posts, and mainly from people who don’t even post on this blog. So, when I read a post like yours, it makes me glad I sign my name, but there is definitely a price, and on the days that I get a slap from someone who disagrees, I think GoodLookingGal has it all figured out. Hahahaha…..

  17. PlayMorBill says:

    Comments on various posts:

    On annonymity: People tend to think twice before hitting Submit when they might be questioned personaly about their statements.

    Scottfield: I’m pretty sure you are the Mrs., but I don’t know for sure, so you’re still partialy annonymous to me. :)

    Susan and I go way back to a time online that was hostile and combative. Speak the truth and you were bombarded with hate and vitriol. It’s still like that in some places out there.

    [shakes head] As a species, I think we still have a long way to go.

    Susan said: “…a tremendous amount of the presumed damage, lack of type and minimized emphasis of form to function can be laid solely at the feet of some of the larger and more powerful breeders.”

    I’m wondering if by ‘larger’ you were speaking literaly or metephoricaly :).

    I couldn’t agree more, Susan. But, to my way of thinking, those “large” breeders have not been Good breeders. Not like the old days, when it was as much about succeeding as a breed as it was about succeeding as an individual breeder.

    A good breeder, to me, is not one who sets out to rule the world, but rather, to make it better… to make it grow. Stuart Hazard comes to mind. His imprint on our breed, both his horses and his character, still flourishes in the heartland.

    Susan went on to say: “Many of the most biased and partial people I know are breeders and often display an extraordinary disdain for any program or “look” other than their own…”

    Again, I agree. Gone are the days of old when, win or lose, you shook your competitors hand with mutual respect. It’s kill or be killed out there.

    OK, it’s not quite that bad. But it can be better. We need more people to realize… to remember… why they have show horses. It’s not for some plaque on a shelf or some ribbon on the wall. It’s not even about the dream of being World Champion. No, at least to me, it’s much more then that.

    ===

    I was going to get mushy and philisophical, but the phones ringing off the hook today. Another time perhaps, but I’ll leave us with this question and ponder my own reply:

    Why do you show horses?

  18. colwilrin says:

    Good question,

    For me it is multi-pronged.
    1. I am very competitive and was hooked on shows the first time we had a mock-show in kiddy lesson camp. It’s exciting, it’s fun, and heck most show people just want to show off a bit!

    2. It is really amazing to get to meet people from all over the country and see what they are doing with their horses, and to see what kind of talent is out there.

    3. Horse show people are a unique breed. Outside of horse shows, people just don’t “get” us. It is a place where we can go each year to gather, and babble on about this passion which engulfs our lives. It is nice to be able to “talk horse” without seeing a glazed look in the eyes of the person sitting across the table.

    4. Lets not forget…the exhibitor’s parties (official and not-so) are a blast! …Oh…and the shopping! Who could resist?

  19. empressive says:

    Concerning the Judging I have been showing Paso Fino’s to a few Morgan people’s regrets. At the larger shows they actually have the Judges comment aloud to the spectators and riders in the class as to their placings.

    It is the BEST EVER!! Not only do we learn more but, then the trainers can understand their placings and work to do better.

    When you discipline your child you tell them what they did wrong so they can improve. Our judging system now does not allow that and much to our chagrin showing NOW is like roulette.

    How will we improve if we do not know what is going on? Sure the trainer next to us can comment all he wants but, there are so many things you just do not see in the stands!

    Try training your horse in the stands for once then get in the middle of the arena and watch them go. There is a DIFFERENCE. I want to get better and I want to be better. I know how to do that.

    I have seen trainers have the hardest time with some of the Ammies and Kids. Think about this…

    Have you parents ever been trying to tell your child how to do something or giving them advice and they just don’t listen? Then a nobody, a friend or stranger or authority figure to your child tells them the same thing you did? And your child listens?

    Have you trainers ever thought that the judge works the same way? Sure you can crack open any rule book and show people in the rules that you are right. But, for some they need a nudge from the person they are trying to prove themselves to.

    Again because I have time! You have a boss. How are you going to please him and get your work done right if he doesn’t TELL you what to do? Or tell you if you are doing your work right?

    It all comes back to the fact that we need to know in the SHOW RING what we are doing wrong so that we can IMPROVE!! No wonder we are walking blind and people do not know a good horse from a bad one. And we ask that the judges go through even more strenuous training.

    Sure if they really want to they will pass but, that doesn’t mean they are going to place accordingly. We are human. And we will always look for handouts. We do not get any better than what we are expected to and even then.

    Sin nature people!

    We need the judges to explain themselves and their choices they need to be held accountable. We ask the learner judges to explain their choices so we know they are making the right choices.

    Why can we not do the same with the R and r judges. You scream and yell, beg and plead, “better, better!” Well ask yourselves… why do we have shows?

    To decide which individual horse is the BEST!

    This is getting long.

    Want the best, breed to the best, have the best. WHO decides if the horse is the BEST?

    The judge!

    How do we know if the horse is the best because the judge picks it! How do we know the Judge is right?

    SILENCE

    Because we make the judge explain their placings.

    Oh, did I touch a nerve. Possibly am I right? Where does all of this banter lead to?

    When I won a class against trainers they all congratulated me. We shake hands in class even when on stallions. We have cheered for each other no matter the outcome. I believe this is due to the character of the people. They are all mostly Latin and we have a blast.

    Ever started dancing outside a class and singing with the trainers and grooms while the Championship is going on?

    Well I have and it is something I will never forget. We had fun no matter what. And when I come back to the Morgan showring I hope to possibly bring some of that fun too. Until then I will always have a Paso Fino. Lord willing!

    As for my annymity. My Mommy told me not to tell ANYONE who I am online. I am young and respecting my MOTHER.

    Not to mention that most adults do not listen or care for the opinions of a child or better said younger generation. This above is all my idea and I hope that my youth does not sour it.

    While this may be long and forceful I will have ALL of you understand that today you are my heros! You here on this site and in the Morgan world making the breed better are the people I am looking up to.

    I am proud to be able to openly discuss and speak about things that someday I too will have to deal with. I am just getting a head start. :)

  20. nightmusicfarms says:

    I really do have a problem with anonymous posts, messages, calls, whatever. I don’t intend this for anyone here at all, this is just a general statement. I think a great deal of coward’s work is done by this method and often with very damaging effect for those involved. I firmly believe that honest, objective opinions stated courteously benefit all of us in learning. (And Scottfield, I can’t imagine anyone taking offense at messages you have sent…)

    Friend Bill, now your last post I agree with start to finish, word for word. Thanks for clarifying your thoughts on trainers, breeders and so forth.

    As for the “big”, it seems that metaphor and reality match, doesn’t it? :)

    Susan

  21. StacyGRS says:

    Oh Bill…:):):)
    Just for fun, let’s look at the audience judging 25% of your total score. Why wouldn’t this work, let me count the ways…
    You say that our judges cards are not hard enough to get, yet now there is no qualification to have input into creating a WORLD CHAMPION other than having a horse at the show? Clearly you would exclude the Jr riders from this…no offense, some are very astute, but I’d rather they waited until some experience and maturity could help them out. So, now we have breeders judging their own horses against others? Hmmm…
    And it is going to, most certainly, make it quite important to be from a big barn…after all, if one has enough “friends” they can win…
    Lastly…no accountability?!?! You can do some serious damage to someone you dislike, or make a friend very successful…and nobody has to know it was you. That’s not mentioning the person that hands their gadget to the person next to them when they go to the bathroom, or the ones that chat and “forget” to watch the transitions in a ladies class, etc. SO…your “fairness” theory is a bit off, I think:)Fun as it might be…for a session…at a small show. Does Sammi know about this plan??!!?!?!:):)
    However, the 3 day show…Ger and I are in:) Throw them in there and see who makes it out alive! We do it every saturday:)
    How hard do you want to make it to get judges cards? We have a disturbingly low judges pool as it is and while it may be technically easy, it does require a reasonable amount of money already (travel for learner shows, etc is hard on some)and certainly requires a devotion of time. Perhaps some more structured input during those schools? I don’t know…I don’t think many judges do a bad job due to ignorance. A few, but they tend to get weeded out. I do think that we should possibly come up with some sort of hand out or something for the “out-of-breed” judges that we hire for OKC. We need them to judge and on the whole I think they do a good job, but I do think a reminder of the Morgan traits that seperate our breed would be a good idea. I think that some people really see things differently…and that is sort of what makes it fun. I think that politics in our breed is reletively low and it is possibly the only thing that will make us decide not to show under someone again. There’s no excuse and no reason.
    As for trainers having a hard time being impartial…hmmm…I think I’d have to disagree. As trainers we have alot of friends out there, certainly. We also work horses for a living because, aside from the obvious wealth it brings us (HAHAHA), we LOVE them and appreciate them. As a trainer,I love a good horse. Judges are no different…they want to tie the best horse. Who is best may vary from person to person, but when they come in the ring you only have so much time and as a trainer (not a judge, however:) my time is spent on the horse. I don’t find it at all hard to sit in the stands and put a good friend 5th (I always place the class when watching:)if that is where they should be and I don’t think I’d find that hard in center ring either…there are many other things I think would be harder! That said, I think there probably ARE trainers that aren’t impartial…as there are breeders, etc. I think if you are an objective person, you will be an objective judge. If you are not, well, then you won’t.
    As for the Paso Fino way of judging, I am sure it is very useful. BUT…we used to show at a show that had Pasos…there is NO way to schedule! Those classes could be fast or slow, depending on the comments and if the judge decided to ride all of the horses (yup!). I stood in the warm up ring with a 3 yr old park harness horse for 45 minutes in the heat waiting…not like the officials had any idea how long it would be either, so we all just stood there. That would be really hard at a horse show, I think.
    entertaining thoughts though:)
    stacy

  22. empressive says:

    That Stacy is the best part of improving on what others have done. Plus our judges do not ride the horse. Hehe thank goodness!

    I can only imagine!

    I did the same thing too! Got ready for my class and had to wait over an hour at the Fiesta of the Spanish horse show in Burbank. Some judges were in from Spain to judge the Andalusian class.

    Goes back to that whole…
    “Learn from others mistakes.”

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