I don’t know much about the breeding aspect of Morgans – as far as Stallions go anyway, but I do know that I love this horse. I thought the beginning is befitting of our wintery wonderland in the midwest. Pretty pretty 
. I do NOT own this video.
[Video embeded - BEB]
He is magnificent!!
Wow, is he gorgeous!!! I’m speechless… (I love his frosty snorts, though!) Thank you so much for posting this—it’s absolutely beautiful!
Thank you so much! He is the sire of my three year old and I have always thought him just magnificent. This tape is by far the prettiest I have ever seen and I really appreciate it.
Susan
He is awesome!! Loved the video. Thank you for sharing it.
Love, love, love this video. Sent it to my sister who works with the Grand Prix Show jumping association, she was blown away and simply had to show it to all her jumper friends to illustrate how gorgeous Morgans are! One day I’d like an offspring of his!
This was when he was in Michigan at Ken Mar with Mark and Missy Wahl. They are not in horses anymore from what I understand, they are in construction. Does anyone know where Centerpeice is standing now and who owns him. The video says a farm in Traverse City and I live less than an hour from there and I don’t remember any big morgan farm there?
Hello –
his website is:
http://www.centerpiecemorgan.com
the website says he is standing at Equine Holdings in Traverse City, but other than that – I don’t know…I don’t know if the website is outdated or what.
I emailed them but that address is for downtown so I doubt he is there. Maybe they will email me back and I can get over there and see him in person.
I did get an email back and they said that Centerpiece is out for breeding until mid summer, did not say where. They said that before they bought him his stud fee was 7500 and bred about 30 mares a year and now they are limiting his breeding to about 15, to make them more valuable, and his stud fee is 15,000. I informed them I would not be interested in breeding with such a fee and with the horse market. I was still invited to come and see him when he returned home. Very nice people, at least the one I spoke to via email.
If they are indeed standing him for $15K, I doubt very much that there will be many takers and frankly, I cannot imagine anyone asking it in this economy.
Yes, they did say $15,000 and they will breed 15 mares. I did tell them I would not be interested in breeding to him at that price, I wouldn’t breed to any stallion for that price. They said it was to limit his offspring and make them more valuable. If they can get it great for them! I just can’t afford it, in this economy or a good one.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they sold 10 or more breedings to him this year. Contractual breeding restrictions are expiring on some of the Masterpiece and Centerpiece studs (we own one). This bloodline is highly sought after by many breeders.
We own Analyze That
(Don’t know how to make a clickable link here, you’ll have to cut and paste)
http://www.playmorefarm.com
Oops. Apparantly I do know how to make a clickable link.
Great looking Saddlebred. Certainly doesn’t look like a Morgan.
These are show horses, TwinHills.
Give me 5 generations and I’ll breed you a Morgan that looks, acts and moves like a Quarterhorse. Or an Arabian. A Trakaener even. All with DNA proven, Morgan pedigrees.
Combined with an intelligent plan, selective breeding can produce a wide variety of gaits and traits within any sub-species. You and I may differ on the definition of ‘Inteligent Plan’, TwinHills, but at least I don’t call yours a donkey.
$15,000.00 is more than I could advise a client to spend on a breeding unless they just had enough money that to loose it would be fine. If that is an embryo transfer baby it has about $25,000.00 into it the day it’s born. That’s a high break even point, IMO. That said, he’s a nice horse and we really like the colt we have by him.
Bill,
Don’t mean to throw a wrench into your thoughts, but DNA only proves parentage; not that the horse is a Morgan.
Kim Viker
I thought the idea was to make Morgans affordable to prospective buyers who would like to breed for a fire breathing dragon? Once again, the owners have made this horse only for the elite. Value? All I can say is Centerpiece’s foals had better be worth the money.
The video is beautiful but I believe any Morgan would look magnificent with snow up to his knees. I personally would like a video of Centerpiece barefoot in a grassy area. If he moves as well barefoot in a grassy area as he did in park shoes in deep snow then he is well worth sharing his gift with everyone who wants a stallion that produces such a natural talent.
In my humble opinion, Analyze That is drop dead gorgeous. He may not have that old time Morgan look, but I wouldn’t confuse him with a saddlebred (too pretty – just kidding). I think I’m going to post another question – I just thought of a doozy.
Hey everybody,
Sorry I have been off for a while. Bill your colt is very nice. Let me know when you cross him to a Beamington/Superman mare or Playboy (Troutbrook) bred mare. Something like that might be neat.
As for Centerpiece until a few of his foals hit the show ring I am reserved. His price though really is a little much whether they wish to make him a commodity or not. Remember while we are trying to create a better breed we are also trying to get breeders to produce better stock.
Raising such high prices will only drive people to the idiot next door. And while Anylze That is not quite par with an exact Morgan standard he is quite nice. You see there needs to be a medium. You could show me half of “ye olde type Morgans” and I would catch just as or more faults in them also.
Nobody is perfect and something people forget is that while Morgans plowed the field ect. they also went to church and other outings. Plus before Standardbreds (which they helped create) were in trotting races where they competed unbelievable well. Something that asks not only for length of stride but, also a bit of a highstep.
Watch this will be the last comment on this post.
You know, I kind of caught my breath at the Twinhills post, whomever he or she may be. I actually went back to read it twice. I then read Bill’s response and here I am, on my feet and applauding his entirely courteous and respectful response.
I really don’t like the pseudonym approach here, as several other people have mentioned. It would be good if people were willing to identify themselves and far more courteous. Whomever Twinhills may be, I thought the post was rude, uncalled for and totally unnecessary. I am very impressed with Bill’s response and think it a textbook example of intelligence and maturity in a circumstance which may not have typically warranted it.
I am sure there will be people who breed to Centerpiece at this rate, but I think it ill advised. The market simply does not support it at this point in time, in my opinion.
My take on the Masterpiece stuff is mixed. The line has produced two of my all time favorite show horses, The Master’s Touch and Centerpiece. I think, however, that the entire bloodline is a huge genetic gamble and have not cared for the majority of them. TMT and CP are really beautiful, round, stereotypically Morgan, in addition to being fabulous park horses. I have seen many that were far too extreme for my taste and not particularly talented. My problem with them is that the mystique Super managed to create around them has resulted in very expensive “tickets to play” and for the most part, I don’t think the offspring have warranted the investment.
I have personally bred to CP twice, at $5K each. I sold the first colt at three and did reasonably well. My second colt is with GRS and I like him very much, but time will tell. In the future, I would be far more inclined to buy a Masterpiece bred horse than I would be to breed to one. I would absolutely have bred to TMT if the horse had ever reproduced himself, but I do not believe that he has or at least with the offspring I have seen.
susan
Just like Bruce Ekstrome did and Maxine Snow. Come on now. If you want a Saddlebred then buy one. I never called this horse a donkey. Yes it is beautiful but it looks like a saddlebred and not a morgan. Sorry but that is my opinion and I am entitled to it.
Twinhill,…. the point Bill was making was that by selective breeding, generation after generation, for the characteristics one desires, a Morgan horse COULD be bred to look similar to another breed. That does NOT imply that he would breed a horse under fraudulant or unethical means! You don’t have to apologize for your likes and dislikes—we all have them…just leave the sarcasm out of it and let those of us who like upheaded, stretchy horses to have our preferences as you want yours…thanks……..
I agree. I think that it is uncalled for to call out any horse in such a way. It seems like there are many different types and styles of Morgans – something for each of us to love.
Perhaps twinhill was misunderstood in her statement though – I don’t want to attack anyone – it just came across as kind of harsh.
As long as there are forums there will be those that will take advantage of that to rudely critisize someone elses horse/breeding programs etc. I think it would be very good indeeed for Twinhill to be brave enough to post a video /picture of her horse so we can also offer our opinions. I would also like to say that Centerpiece is a small horse of good Morgan type (not the same as TYPY as in Lippitt) , Centerpiece was bred by my beloved Uncle. not Mr. Super. Charles W. Grosse ,now deceased. BTW, Mr. Grosse , absolutely Loved the Morgan SHOW Horse and so did his father Charles W. They would both roll over in there respectuive graves to know someone is running around calling there 14.3 hand bay necky stallion Centerpiece a saddlebred. They were not breeders that tried to do that. As for Masterpiece, anyone stating that the line hasn’t produced needs to open the records books, clean off there glasses and read every years Grand National results going back for the last thirty or so years starting with Serenity Grandmaster himself. They are not comformationally without flaws but they have certainly been exciting show horses that have certainly made an incredible mark for the good imo on the breed. They have done so repeatedly and even in the results of the past year, Masterpiece and his sons and daughters can be found all over the papers of the results of the World champions. I have been quite amused over the years ,that the people and trainers with the biggest mouths that wers always our biggest critics with that line, have all one by one clamored to breed and train the offspring. I would also like to offer that it is being more and more understood everyday that the large thick cresty necks of yesteryear were often the result of metobolic sydrome/cushings disease/ not a good thing.JMO K Hummel
I am not sure who Khummel is, but how neat for you that your uncle bred Centerpiece and my apologies, I did not realize that. I thought that he had been bred by Mike, although the distinction is somewhat minimized by the fact that Centerpiece was owned by and sold by the Super program.
At any rate, they have indeed been exciting show horses and I have certainly put my dollars where my admiration was as far as CP is concerned. However, like many great show horses, particularly stallions, it is also true that the great horses from this line did not necessarily reproduce. The same thing can be said of many fabulous horses and a variety of different bloodlines.
Given the very high service fee of several of the more prominent representatives of this line, it is understandable that their prepotence comes into question, as it should If one is going to ask $5K on up for a stallion’s fee, the likely assumption is that the horse will breed on and this has not been the case in many circumstances.
My personal opinion is that the best we can do is emulate the old Thoroughbred breeders in saying “breed the best to the best and hope for the best”.
Susan
I respectfully disagree and do not know how anyone could make a statement that the male line has not produced. Serenity Grandmaster to Serenity Masterpiece, THe Masters Touch Millenium all of these horse have themselves produced World champions. Centerpiece is still young in the stud. My son of his is only three. Time will tell on him but the blood does and has produced decade after decade. I dont know all the answers and people that say they know all the answers definatively scare me. Its what you learn after you think you have all the answers that counts. And this is especially true with breeding horses. If it were easy everybody could do it. Only a handul of breeders have bred horses who have done well in the stud decade after decade. My parents Bob and Jean Rutledge of Serenity Morgans certainly bred a lot of horses whop have stood the test of time. Serenity Masterpiece, just one of the horses they bred has offspring still winning world championships at this years OKC. It is matter of record. I know of a stallion in the back woods of Ohio most of you have never seen that is the most phenomenal animal I have seen and he is a Masterpiece son. We will all be haring from him in this decade.
If you are on a budget there are a lot of nice stallions out there to breed to especially in this economic downturn. But if a person can get a lot of money for a stud fee to there nice horse, I dont think its anyone elses business.
Sorry about the spelling, no java yet. I forgot to add lastly, blue hen mares are as scarce as hens teeth and command a high price. Since the mares egg hold far more DNA then the stallion contributes to the equation(scientific fact ) then a top breeding stallion must have a blue hen dam. $$$$$$$ Masterpiece himself had just that. If one is unhappy with the result of there breeding efforts I suggest it is your mares that need to be upgraded.$$$$ Afterall, the majority of offspring do tend to look and act like there dams. I dont have a lot more time to join this discussion right now as I work for a living and can’t stay on the computer. Again, this is just my opinion but I think its good for people who do have all day to frequent these type of forums to remember to have good manners and know for sure what they are talking about before they post. K Hummel
oh yes,and btw, I would have liked to say this as well. If a person is listening to that person who says they have ALL the answers-the super salesman smarter than every other horseman or breeder there ever has been guy ,no wonder there is confusion and disenchantment. Word to the wise tread very carefully in that water . Its full of sharks.
A couple of thoughts.
First, for me personally, I don’t think there is any stallion that produces with enough consistently high quality foals for me to want to risk $15,000 on a stud fee.
Secondly, I think one of the things that makes us a great breed is that regardless of your chosen discipline, you can find horses that can do it within our diverse gene pool. You can also refine your breeding program to your personal tastes. I happen to think a lot of Centerpiece, both as an individual and a sire. He suits my taste.
When I think about the greats of our breed, in Reining, in Dressage, in Park Harness, they are extremes within in their disciplines, and extreme examples of the diversity of our breed, and I’m fine with that. In fact, I think its great! It impresses me a great deal when I see a breeder that can consistently breed for what jobs they hope their horses will enjoy and excel at doing. And I love my horse for the same reasons you love yours, and that doesn’t change from breeder to breeder or discipline to discipline. That is what we all have in common, we love our Morgans, big and small, Bay and palomino, trail or show, we sure do love our Morgans. I like to think about THAT.
I think he looks too much like a Saddlebred especially in the head and neck and he has only won one world championship (atleast that is all that is listed on the website)
Personally If I were breeding for the Park division I would want to breed to Stand and Deliver, he displays greater breed character, has won more world championships and his stud fee is a great deal cheaper
though still out of my range at the moment
Morgans and Saddlebreds are kissing cousins in the blood. Look it up. This forum is getting out of hand calling peoples Morgans Saddlebreds and being just plain ill mannered. I hope those of you casting aspersions on other peoples horses can prove what you say. You are opening yourselves up to trouble. this forum to trouble, and its not good for the breed as a whole to be doing this stuff . I give up and sorry I ventured over to the site. Too rude for me. k Hummel
To KHummel,
Please don’t hold the lack of etiquette displayed by some bloggers against us all. If you give it another chance, I think you will find that by and large, the nastiest comments just get ignored. There are several professional who frequent this site, and their posts are usually very well thought out and productive, even when they disagree. Obviously, TwinHills isn’t one of them, but he/she is entitled to their opinion just the same. Doesn’t mean it is right, or that you have to agree with it. You know what they say about Opinions…
Only won one world championship, eh? Do you have any idea what it takes to win a World championship in Park Saddle? Even just one? How many has your horse won? And just to be clear I wouldnt pay that much either and didnt. But if someone else wants to. this is still America and its none of our business what deals a person makes with there stallion. People have spent a whole lot more money than that on horses who won more than one world title and got nothing of any count. I am very satisfied with the filly and colt I have by Centerpiece and a top breeder from Southern Ohio also has put a big stamp of approval on them and thats good enough for me.Iam going back to trot .org where moderators would not allow this sort of thing continue. Maybe I was raised a little differently but where I come from this is just plain bad manners. K hummel
Honestly, if the users of this blog can’t discuss the difference of opinion in a rational and respective manner I agree that they need to go elsewhere to argue. If Twinhill thinks it looks like a Saddlebred, so what. It is one persons opinion. If you don’t agree then state your case, disagree and please move on to a different subject or a different forum. I am asking that you please act like adults.
-BEB (blog administator)
Thank-you Beth!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, or at least I hope so. Just because people don’t agree on everything doesn’t mean that they still cannot discuss it in a civilized manner. There have been type wars going on in this breed forever, and it doesn’t seem as if that will ever go away. It really is ok to agree to disagree.
Kim Viker
First off I realize Saddlebreds and Morgans are closely related, however looking at their breed standards you can see there are differences and yes I realize no horse can perfectly fit the breed standard.
I have been looking for a stallion to breed my mare to and it seems that a lot of the top park Morgans seem to be looking more and more like saddlebreds. I personally am I huge fan of how morgans look through their heads and necks, I would love to have every horse in my barn matching the breed standard in that sense.
And yes I realize it takes a lot of time, money, and sweat to win the World Park title I was simply pointing out there are other morgans out there who have won that or more world championships and their stud fees are no where near that price. I am sorry but even w/o the economy the way it is, 15k is crazy that’s a good 10k more than other good stallions. You can have a lower stud fee and still limit the number of mares so that the foals will be more valuable.
My worry is that if stud fees like this become a trend Morgans are not going to be affordable. Horses are expensive enough for people to get involved in and where I come from people dont just have money to throw around and it seems you cant be competitive in the Morgan world with out really expensive horses. I was never able to do rated shows as a kid even though i worked just as hard if not harder than the kids that got to. Now I work with 4H kids and it breaks my heart when we go to a show and they ride great and only place in the bottom of the class and they ask me what they did wrong and all I can tell them is “Nothing, you rode great you worked hard to get your horse ready but you just dont have a fancy enough horse.”
I guess it is just a sad fact that I am going to have to learn to accept… Being competitive with horses of any breed and any disciplines even just at the regular season show level is a privilege reserved for those with money the rest of us will have to be satisfied with schooling shows and knowing that our horses dont care about the ribbons.
Fully agree that people can and should express differing opinions, as long as it is done with courtesy. This is a great learning opportunity for all of us and we should take advantage of it.
I personally thought that Getmorganized expressed his or her opinion very well. There is a difference is saying something like “nice Saddlebred” and saying “this horse looks too saddley for my taste” and I am sure everyone hear can readily see that difference.
Khummel, are you or were Kathy Rutledge? If so, I met your parents years ago and you have much to be proud of in your family’s breed efforts.
Susan
Yes one in the same. I quess it is more than a little obvious I like the horse and the offspring so far. I seem to be a little too protective of that particular horse, since he was bred by Uncle B, also a true blue best friend to me . I speak out for him since he is not here to speak for himself and his legacy. You are all correct though. It is a personal blog with many different opinions . They are just opinions and everyone is entitled to theres. I get that. I don’t like the way it came across thats all.And I wasnt sure where this was going or why it was being allowed to continue. If I am wrong to be so offended please accept my apologies. The Grossees were wonderful people and they do not get the kudos they deserve for breeding the horse and then he is being discussed in what I perceived to be a negative way. But I do not wish to upset Beth and so I will leave it at that and wish no hard feelings. K Hummel
“Since the mares egg hold far more DNA then the stallion contributes to the equation(scientific fact ) then a top breeding stallion must have a blue hen dam. $$$$$$$ Masterpiece himself had just that. ”
khummel…Could you explain this concept a bit further or direct me to where I could find out. I have heard the term blue hen dam, but assumed it was a matter of opinion as to whether one was or not. thanks
Ok, I have stayed off the site awhile being a good girl but must say something…
khummel, I will never forget seeing Melissa Wahl and Centerpiece win the Park Saddle class and he took my breath away. When you said he was only 14.3, I was shocked, he seems huge!! I think he is incredible, you and your family should be proud. I know some are complaining about his stud fee but hey, the people who own him have every right to ask whatever they wish. At least they are offering him to the public.
I certainly don’t think he looks anything like a saddlebred. In the past, people have asked if my morgans are arabians. Oh well, I use to show arabs so maybe I go for that look. I do appreciate a pretty face. Sometimes I have to remind myself to look at the rest of the horse. :>)
Again, please don’t leave this site. It sounds like you are very knowledgeable and can offer a lot of insight.
Janie Denning
PS: Before someone posted his video on this site, I had emailed the youtube video to all my morgans friends, we all were drooling..
Personally, I am a fan of all sorts of Morgans – that’s why I love them. There are the sporty type, the big old Brunk types, the working western, the sleek saddle type, the big hunter types and so and so on so on. My morgan Shaker was often mistaken for an Arabian at some of the open shows we went to, for instance, but he was Morgan through and through – looked exactly like his father “Troutbrook Playboy” actually. To me Centerpiece looks very much like a Morgan, he is stunning! I don’t blame Khummel for being protective of him, but look at the first comments – people LOVE him for the most part. Also, I’m sure there are people out there who don’t like “Stand and Deliver” or whoever else – it’s all about personal preference.
thank you Peppermintpatti! He is small but mighty. Like Mr. Whitney always said “The Morgan is a little horse that thinks he is a big horse.” That surely fits this horse. Melissa is only about 5 foot and very petite,much like Miss Judy, so tiny up there those ladies made the horses look big as long the horse had the heart Neck attitude to pull it off. As for what I mean by the term blue hen ,to me it means a mare who has transformed the breed through her sons, mares that have stood the test of time and produced the Worlds best horses. The old timers called these mares ‘taproot’ mares.A blue hen recognizes the capabilities of certain female lines that consistently produce quality. Serenity remember Me was such a mare .She was so strikingly lovely and full of quality. Her mother Vicky V was also a blue hen in my mind having also produced my 18 times World champion in hand in harness and in saddle(3 times world park harness Ladies) back in ancient babylon (HAHA) . Who knows what that horse might have produced also as her son, but he was gelded to make him the superior show horse that he became. I also think the term blue hen means large heart in the racing circles , having to do with the importance of the female X chromasone in matters of heart size. I can tell you that Vicky V’s famous son Val’s Terry certainly carried the large heart. At his retirement at nineteen, I could barely hold onto the horse at the ingate . The horse grew ten feet tall and I swear sparks were flying out of his hooves. That was a long time ago but he was a great one and Vicky V herself(the dam of Serenity Remember Me, dam Of Serenity Masterpiece) was the same way. A good book on breeding theory that I have read is Race horse breeding theories by Frank Mitchell. There are many other resources. And I am not an expert. More of an observer. I have learned something very amzing. When you compare the very best racehorses, the very best Morgans, the very best Saddlebreds, the very best hackneys, the very best of any breeds(who were all the products of inbreeding originally) but thats another topic for another snowstorm.. Anyway the very best of each breed have way more in common with each other than not. I found that amzing to learn. It is very true when you look at quality and balance and symetry etc. They are more alike than different making the type wars not so important . I do like one thing about the Morgans that you cannot find in any of the other breeds I don’t think anyway. The way they kind of look at you is uniquely Morgan.
I meant to say the way they kind of look down at you. Its a very uniquely Morgan thing. Know what I mean?
Vicky V was indeed a great mare and certainly produced the best of the best in Terry.
On another note, Troutbrook Playboy was one o the most spectacularly beautiful Morgans ever born and like Willy, did indeed have a very Arabian look. Your boy was obviously nicknamed for Shaker Farms JNS?
One thing I failed to mention is how nicely this horse was standing while waiting for the results to be announced. You could see many of the other horses moving around and it says a lot about his personality and training how nicely he stood…always more of a joy to work around well mannered horses who aren’t nervous wrecks all of the time…I say this as I head out to deal with the two crazy arabs who board at our barn for the winter…more their owners fault than theirs that they are crazy but nevertheless, not a joy for me to deal with.
See khummel, you must stay with us on this list, I have learned exactly what a blue hen is. I can tell you know a lot about the breed and I love reading the posts of such knowledgeable people.
Boy do I miss Melissa and Mark Wahl, they sure were an asset to the breed. Not to mention, Melissa was so beautiful and added to the great picture. She and Centerpiece made such a pretty pair.
I remember seeing Val’s Terry at Oklahoma City (just a few years back….). He looked like so much fun to ride or drive. He must have been a real pistol! I bet he was a hoot to ride. He had such expression and beautiful color and those huge eyes.
Nice horse all the way around.
Kim
nightmusicfarms-