The Cochran Auction Service Annual Fall Morgan Horse Consignment Auction is scheduled for November 6, 7, and 8, 2008 and will once again be held at Tattersalls in Lexington, KY. In addition to the over 120 quality Morgans listed in the catalog, Penny Cochran has let me know that 7 additional horses will be participating. Information regarding those added horses will be listed on AboveLevel.com once Penny can send it to us.
The schedule for the sale will include a Tack Auction on Thursday afternoon (12:00pm-6:00pm) and Friday morning (9:00am) while, the Thursday evening session (7:00pm) will feature 15 horses being sold by PlayMor Farm, the Morgan horse farm located in Lexington, KY and owned by the Hazen family. Friday night (7:00pm) will continue the consignment horse auction, with Lot numbers 1-40 being sold. The remaining horses, Lots 1-131, will be auction on Saturday starting at 9:00am.
For lodging information, directions and more information visit the Cochran Auction Services website.
The sales catalog says PlayMor is having an open house at the farm on Thursday night. Is that still the case, or are they just having a Thursday night session at Tattersalls?
Ethicas in the horse business should include 100% reporting on 100% of all auction animals.
The spinners of top five, top ten or sale averages is a crock of manure….Its past time the high road to protect the newbees and regulars and stop the propaganda on values!!
SORRY ABOUT ALL THE TYPOS..I am a fruit ya’know…however with some valid points. Ethics shouldnot be a dirty word in the Horse
Buisness….Auctions. Shows. Sales. Breeding.
There is room to improve……maybe it will bring some buyers and fresh faces!!!!
Bananas
I am a bit confused as to why an auction would have to report 100% of the sale prices to be considered “ethical.” Also, how does this relate to shows, sales, and breeding as mentioned in your second post.
Are you suggesting that all sales, private too, be publicized? I don’t see how that contributes to “ethics.” I do see how it would detract from a buyer/seller right of privacy. I am totally lost by your reference to shows and breedings, in light of the topic.
It seems that your sweeping generalizations have left me a bit befuddled, please explain.
DeaR Befuddled, Public auctions are news. Publications that produce the news of the industry, should have an obligation to produce a 100% acurate account of a public sale. The No sales, horse pulled due to illness or sale price not reached. Then with 100% validity will the public have good faith in an auction, whi cares about the top three averages? Or top ten…. Sarting the ethics questions only to open the lingo on shows, breedings etc. Are all shows meant to be marathons or fun family events? Where are the families? The seats are emptier than usual from where I sit, and you? Breeding? Are the numbers up?Down? What breed is up? -Just chatter….not meant to sound nasty…..:) bananas
I agree that public auctions are public events and newsworthy(private auctions would most likely be governed by whatever rules are printed in their sales brochures/contracts). As such, journal reporters should be entitled to report any and all results from a public event. However, I don’t know if there are any rules governing the duty of disclosure. In other words, I don’t think the group running a public auction are compelled by law to affirmatively publicize their sales, no-sales, pre auction transactions, failure to pay a completed sale, etc… However, I have not checked on this, so there may well be supporting statute.
As far as ethics and business governing are concerned, I am a libertarian. The less governance the better. If a business is not above board, people find out and they eventually lose all customers. The system takes care of itself.
If there are not laws compelling disclosure (again, I don’t know if there are or not), I would not be a proponent towards passing them.
However, out of sheer nosiness (yes, I am the proverbial curious cat)…I would be very interested to read all the sales info that was reported in a journal by a reporter who attended the sale.
As far as empty seats at shows…there were also empty lines at our local amusement park this summer. Skyrocketing fuel and dropping stocks have taken quite a bite out of all leisure industries. I think that phenomenon has more to do with economy than ethics.
Family fun vs. Marathon…it all depends on which circuit you like. I spent 15+ on the family fun circuit and enjoyed every moment. The last 5 years I have done the marathon regionals and OKC. It is also great. Both venues have their followings and in my area seem to be well supported by such…again, as best as our current economy allows.
I am also a firm believer in shows being equally social events as they are competitions. You get out of them what you put in. For me, they are my vacations for the year, and my attitude is that I am there to relax and have fun…as well as compete. If it ceases to be fun in the future, I’ll trade in the arena dust for a beach in the carribean!
I think I know where you’re coming from, bananas. I’m not sure the best way to go about it, but I agree in some sense that often the reporting of an auction doesn’t accurately reflect the entire sale- highs & lows. Since the publications tell the “highlights”, it can give the impression that everyone did well and that all the horses will have a happy ending in a barn where they are loved to pieces. It can also give the impression that it is a place to make some money on a breeding program, or at least stop losing money. I worry that it encourages over-breeding as it can be seen as a viable outlet for “overstock”.
Thank you-you got it. Now, are some publications “news’ publications or vanity press? There should be some accountability some where in anybreed auctions…thanks
Karen, I think we are in a serious overstock situation now, perhaps brought about more by an abysmal market than excessive breeding, not sure. You raise a good point and it is always a bit sad to see so many horses go the auction route, particularly the ones who have really paid their dues throughout the years. Not at all disparaging well run auctions, so hope it doesn’t sound that way. It is just nice for the owner to have a say in where the animal goes. All other considerations aside, you can really take a bath putting a horse through an auction and while I have done it, is has always been pretty much a last resort measure.
It seems to me that most of the auctions are pretty good about publishing prices, aren’t they? Cochran’s is always run tighter than tight, but there are always a few brave souls who mark catalogues and are willing to share information. There are a number of things about Cochran’s marketing which leave me completely puzzled and that aspect of it is just one of them.
Susan
Kind of stumbled in here. I’ll try not to put my foot in my mouth…
Our industrys’ publications are not like the New York times. The profit is not made by selling more issues. The profit comes from the advertisers, and, by and large, the advertisers make the news. They are the news.
That’s why rumour and gossip only live here, on the internet. That’s why, for the most part, negative stories will never find their way onto the pages of our magazines.
As for auctions, both public and private, they are not news, they are news-worthy events. An important distinction. Covering these events are reporters from various publications who also act as sales representatives for advertising in their magazines. The magazines do not make money dragging negative details concerning their customers into the spotlight.
On auction prices themselves, I, for one, couldn’t care less. Susan is right (Bill waves from Kentucky and says “Hi Susan!”), for the most part, it is an act of last resort. For us, it’s usually clearing house to make room for the next generation.
We ran 15 horses and one ET through our sale. We sold 9 and the ET, and no saled 6. Of those 6, I’m pretty sure at least 3 will be sold privately by the end of this weekend. People are coming back today to take a second look.
While we did give a few horses away, we felt the sale was great success. 150 people attended and had a great time. We promoted our farm and stallions. Great food, great music, great fun!
Bill Hazen
PlayMor Farm
Lexington, KY
Hey Bill:
It is great to hear your “voice”. You are missed in other areas and I hope you chime in often.
I heard nothing but raves about your event, totally first class all the way. If Eddie remains no saled, please let me know.
Take wonderful care.
Susan
I thought I would take advantage of the election excitement and remind folks that we have an important AMHA election coming up, with candidates running in several regions and for DAL.
For such a small organization, we have been through extraordinary turmoil for these past seven years or so and I am sure most of us would like to see it come to an end. Given the rough economy, owning and enjoying Morgans has become even more difficult and consequently, the rewards of that ownership should include a healthy, vibrant organization dedicated to promoting the Morgan breed and the people who love them.
One of the candidates running in Region 7 is Mari Sanderson, a long time Morgan person living in the Ontario area of Southern CA.. Mari and her husband have owned Morgans since the early 80′s with both their children and now grandchildren joining in the fun and learning to show their much loved family horses. Mari is a down to earth, amiable person with a deep love for the breed and a thorough enjoyment of all aspects of Morgan ownership, from showing her “kids” to the all important mucking out of stalls. Mari trains with Gerry Rushton Stables and is, as she says, an Amateur owner through and through. Mari’s horses can make the same claim, as they are used in every discipline imaginable, from pole bending to Classic Pleasure Driving.
I believe she is committed to bringing Region 7 together in a positive, constructive fashion and will do her best to represent all of the people and all of our interests and concerns. Frankly, I think a number of us are more than ready to have fun again, put the angst of years past behind us and both believe in and our support our leadership. I hope Region 7 members consider Mari for director and vote for her in December. I am pasting her biography below, as I am not sure if everyone can open the file.
Thanks!
Susan Overstreet
MARI SANDERSON REGION 7 BOARD OF DIRECTORS
To Region 7 Members:
My name is Mari Sanderson and I would like to be your next Region 7 Director. My name will be on the ballot, which you should receive late December. I love and care about the Morgan Horse and I have no agenda other than representing you, enjoying the breed and having fun. I would greatly appreciate your vote.
For those who don’t know who I am, let me give you a brief history:
I am married to a wonderful patient man by the name of Gary T. Sanderson, who is a licensed Land Surveyor. I myself, have worked in the medical field as an office manager and in accounts receivable for many years. I am now retired, but do “go-fer” work for my husband now and then. Gary and I have been married for 29 years and have a blended family of three children: Kathy, Gary Jr. and Brian. We have seven grandchildren, two show Morgan’s. Madison Sanderson, 9 and Charles Thompson, 16 who have both recently been showing Ryan’s Got the Beat. Some of you may remember in the mid 80’s when our son, Brian (Madison’s dad) was showing Orcland Baroness, and Windrun Starbuck in Jr. Ex. Pleasure Driving. I am currently Vice President ( and life member) of Morgan Horse Breeders and Exhibitors Association and a Director for Golden West Region VII.
I remember, as a small child, Margarite Henry’s story about the Morgan Horse and watching the Disney Movie JUSTIN MORGAN HAD A HORSE. I knew I wanted a horse but having a Morgan was my dream. I started out with a Mustang at the age of 11. I learned to jump and was riding Thoroughbreds and jumper type horses in my teens. I got married, the children were young, and the Welsh Pony moved into favor. My lifestyle changed during that time, but in 1979 I married Gary. He knew of my love for the Morgans and told me to go buy a Morgan. We have owned Morgans horses since 1982, when we bought our first two Morgans from Orcland Farm and Harold Hoover. They were Orcland Baroness and HRH Peacock. I was showing and watching them being shown. I was hooked and have been ever since. We have owned many other Morgans since that time; the most well known being WC Airegantlee. We have Morgans out there under the Highlander prefix showing, trail riding and one is barrel racing and pole bending. Watching them do their job has been some of my proudest moments.
I am and have been a backyard owner/breeder, pinching pennies, and still mucking stalls. I have shown primarily in Classic Pleasure Driving. I know the joy of winning and the frustration of defeat to its core. I am an amateur through and through. I have been blessed to have been a client of some of the most knowledgeable trainers in the country. I have learned the finesse of the breed, and how each horse has its specialty. It can be showcased successfully, whether it is sport horse or park horse. They are all Morgan’s and have that “can do attitude” and they do it with style.
The Morgan Horse has been part of my life for over 27 years. I feel I am well qualified to represent the Region 7 members and the many aspects and disciplines of the breed.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I would appreciate your vote this coming winter.
Sincerely,
Mari Sanderson
Dear Bill, Thank you for the hands on from the auction. There are two websites of the premier level of Morgandum, that do list NEWS and EVENTS. Therefore any newbee coming to the breed could, would and should expect an honest report of 100% of a PUBLIC auction. Private sales are private. Any event that invites the public to come is a news worthy event, and therefore subject to the highest level of ETHICS and INTEGRITY. When those epectations are met, then and only then will new and some old people be back buying, showing, breeding. Or were the stands full at the auction? Were the seats full at the Grand National? Best Wishes…..
Susan: Point me to the “other areas”. It’s been so long I don’t even know where they are anymore.
We’ll know about Eddie by today. We had people here at the farm all day yesterday. I think he got ridden three times!
Bannanna’s: Newbees don’t come from websites or magazines that meet some abject level honesty. They come from everywhere. The best introduction to our breed, and, indeed, the entire horse industry, is when someone holds their hand and shows them whats possible.
The stands have never been full at Nationals. They never will be. We hold that show in the middle of quarterhorse country. However, the Missouri, Ohio and Illinois State fairs always draw big crowds, and at New England, the heart of our breed, the seats are always packed.
Cochran Auction: The only 2 newsworthy things at Friday nights session was that there were some horses going for as little as $50 – $100, and Masque in Black topped the sale at $10,000.
Wow..that makes me sick to my stomach. $50-$100. Bill, what is the bidder turnout like. In your opinion is a result of bidder turnout, type of horse (show vs. pet-type), or economy? I am really trying to decide if my brood mare needs to find a new job…
There are bidders here, but they are not looking to bid on … well, I’ll just say way-way-below-average horses.
We sold a yearling this morning for $1,500, and we are fine with that.
Since you asked, I’ll give you my opinion. The quality of the horses is poor and the economy has the lower-end buyers saving money for Christmas. Quality horses are still bringing good money.
Additionaly, the reason horses are getting $50 bids is because flaming heart liberals have successfully removed slaughter as a viable option for horses that otherwise have no market value. This has effectively moved the bottom price of a horses worth to zero.
That’s cold hearted, I know. I’m sorry, but it is the truth. We are facing an epidemic in the horse industry simply because some people can’t stomache what others choose to put in theirs.
Horses are now having to be rescued from horse rescue operations.
Humanity sometimes befuddles me…
Bill,
I agree that the market for show horses, especially those of the quality needed for regional and OKC levels, has seemed to remain insulated from the economic “recession.”
However, there is a crisis in the breed regarding horses outside that parameter. People are having a very hard time getting stock sold. This is a trend that did not just start this season, but had been apparent for the past few years…just not as obvious as it is now.
I wish I had an answer to this. There just aren’t as many families who can afford the acreage and have time to care for a family horse. With most families needing to be double income, there isn’t anyone at home to care for a dog, much less a horse. In this day and age of “planned communities” it is more popular to live in a huge house on a postage stamp lot, and easier and cheaper to just buy the kids an Xbox.
In this area (upstate NY)the American lifestyle has changed. Farmers are going the way of the dodo, their lands being replaced by subdivisions for track mansions. Acreage used for livestock feed will soon be tagged for alternative fuel. Heck, we are even having a hard time finding shavings due to the popularity of wood pellet stoves. Open field are disappearing, land rezoned from agricultural. The lots are getting much smaller than the acreage needed to keep a horse per our town ordinances.
When I was a kid, there was a horse in about every third yard within the 4 towns surrounding me. Some towns needed 2-3 4H clubs just for equestrian kids. Sadly, these hobby farms and large lots are now parceled into tiny little lots with shiney new homes for cidiots who think they want to live a “country life.” What they really mean is “enhanced suburbia.”
There is nothing wrong with choosing that lifestyle, and I don’t mean to criticize people who choose it. It is, however, having a great effect on our industry.
I am afraid the days of seeing a horse in the family’s back yard is nearing a close and the industry is going to need some time to adjust.
Bill:
Will send you off an email in a sec regarding pointing the way.
Eddie:
I understand he sold to a very good home on OK and I am happy to hear that. Please thank Sammi again for letting me know.
Cochran:
Several people have said that an enormous percentage no saled the first day and yes, some getting bids in the $50 range. I think there are a lot of reasons for the horrific market situation, but just wanted to say that I agree with Bill 100% on the slaughter issue. Well meaning, ill informed political change which will result in a true tragedy of horse abuse if we don’t find a way to remedy it. Think about the fact that we already have dogs and cats being deserted as families leave foreclosed properties. I mean “deserted” as in left to die or fend for themselves without even the mercy of being taken to a shelter or euthanized. Multipy that by a 1,000 pound animal and this scenario is just ripe for tragedy. In my opinion, the effort should have been entirely focused on humane transport and kill procedures rather than ever, ever eliminating slaughter.
All that said, I do think this is the most challenging market we have ever faced and I am afraid it is a long way from over. Very well bred, truly lovely animals which are not the top flight OKC crop are becoming very, very difficult to sell, not because of the purchse price but rather, the cost of upkeep. People simply cannot afford to maintain horses as in the past and when the situation is compounded by having to board them out, other priorities take precedence.
This is certainly not the time for a large number of people to be breeding and I absolutely include myself in that comment.
Even more tragic is the plight of the grade horses in the country…
Susan: Eddie was leased this year through OKC and returned to us afterward. To my knowledge, he didn’t sell there, or, as of 4:35pm EST on Sat, Nov 8, 2008, has he sold at all.
I’ll check my facts and get back to you…
As for the market, we survive on peoples disposable income. When that runs dry, so to, does our market. Unfortunatley, this ends up being a good thing where only the strong survive.
Mother nature has some very harsh rules.
No matter how sophisticated we think we are, humans are still subjected to those rules. From the stock market to banking & credit, to real estate, mother nature is making sure that her way still rules the roost.
We have been too nice, too weak and too permissive for the last several years. We are now paying the price she sets. The bad news is some people will be hurt. The good news is, when this all washes out, the strong will not only survive, but prosper. Like it or not, this will always be the case.
The cool part about being human is you can decide to be strong, or you can whine, moan and complain your way to failure.
I’m one of the fortunate few that married someone who refuses to be the latter.
We sold 2 more mares at Cochran today. One bred to Pardon My French ($4,500) and one to Mizrahi ($7,500). We sold a western horse privately at the discounted price of $10,000 to someone who has have been friends of ours for a long time. They are breeding 2 mares to our stallions, and have been out of the game for a while and are just now getting back in.
That’s a homerun in my book. In the long run, the loss we took on the western horse will be money in the bank.
Susan: Make sure to send me those links. As evidenced by this long-winded, haphazard comment, I’m in the mood to write. This is just the 6th day since we left for OKC that I’ve been home, and I’m glad to say I get the next couple of weeks to stay here, doing nothing more then the mundane chores this lifestyle requires.
That be music to my ears…
Just a comment concerning overbreeding. The quarter horse breeders are out of control. Staggering numbers of them are being bred and have been bred and I find it interesting indeed that they as a group are one hundred percent for horse slaughter. I agree the do gooders made a mess of things. If any of you think it is okay to do to an animal what they are doing to them in the Mexican plants I dont want to know you. Spend the $100
i meant to keep typing spend the $100 and let the vet take them to a better place if there is no use for the animal anymore. slaughter is not the real answer though the way it was (excepting the inhumane transport) was far better than what we have now. Rampant overbreeding is the real culprit of these problems. Truthfully, only about 1 or 2 percent are good enough to be breeding animals in the first place. I really am discusted by the quarter horse association and such massive over breeding.
I keep hearing the argument that eliminating slaughter has ruined the market for horses because there is no longer a minimum, per-pound price for a horse going through a sale. I guess I don’t fully understand this. Would buyers at Cochran pay more for an unbroke, mediocre, 11-year-old stud just because a meat buyer would pay more for him? It seems to me that all that would do would be to give the irresponsible person who didn’t bother to geld or train the horse a chance to make more money (or lose less, anyway) than they can right now. In other words, rewarding irresponsible decisions.
For what it’s worth, I just read some results from the Keenland November sale. The total receipts are down 47.4% from last year. The top price went from 10.5 million in ’07 to 3 million this year. The upper-levels of horse ownership are supposedly insulated from this economic turmoil, but clearly if those shopping at Keenland are keeping their wallets closed, we shouldn’t be surprised that the same thing happened at Tattersalls.
To keep the Keeneland sale in perspective, the last three years had seen records for Gross, Average and Highest prices. Many horses were no-saled, meaning the owners believed there was value there, and intend to keep the stock until their price is met.
The economic downturn infects all parts of the horse world. But getting $75,000 instead of $100,000 is vastly different then getting $50 instead of $500.
Meat prices set the bottom of a horses value. As I said earlier, removing that bottom effectively sets the floor at zero. Eliminating slaughter is not ruining the horse market, but rather, subjecting many horses to longer, much more horible fates.
As for overbreeding, the cure is quite simple. We geld stallions that aren’t breeding stock, we should do the same to mares.
Just because it has reproductive organs, doesn’t mean it should reproduce.
“Meat prices set the bottom of a horses value. As I said earlier, removing that bottom effectively sets the floor at zero.”
That’s the common rhetoric, but I’m not convinced. I’m thinking of that little weanling that went through Friday night and brought in a whopping $25. When slaughter was still legal, did kill buyers come to Cochran? I’m guessing not, and I don’t understand why a horse’s meat price would have an effect on its price at Cochran. Would someone have paid more for that filly if the owner could have made more at a meat auction?
Maybe I’m naive, but I have to believe it’s the economy, and not the lack of a for-profit horse disposal option, that made the prices so low. In a different economy I think that someone would be willing to take a chance on a registered black Morgan filly.
“As for overbreeding, the cure is quite simple. We geld stallions that aren’t breeding stock, we should do the same to mares.”
I know you do. You’ve got fantastic horses and you train them so that people want to own them. But then there’s the guy who brings in his unbroke stud, talking about how he throws big motion and long necks (and yet, no one’s ever heard of him or any of his offspring). He’s the problem.
“Just because it has reproductive organs, doesn’t mean it should reproduce.”
I’m with you there, 100%.
Bill,
Thank you for including Mares in the “just because they have reproductive organs…” statement.
Owners carefully weigh the pros and cons of a studs behavior and confirmation before deciding to geld, because it is non-reversible. However, mares often do not undergo similar scrutiny prior to breeding them.
IMO the same qualities that would cause a stallion to be gelded should stop a mare owner from breeding as well.
I agree about the overbreeding. There is a stallion offered for sale by an outside client at the barn I go to. “Sid” is a nice horse, by all means, but breeding quality? Almost there, but not quite. Anyway, this particular client insists on marketing him as a stud, and thus will probably not sell him. He’d make an awesome little pleasure horse, but who wants a stallion they can’t breed? And an obnoxious bellowing one at that!
“Meat prices set the bottom of a horses value.”
“That’s the common rhetoric, but I’m not convinced … When slaughter was still legal, did kill buyers come to Cochran? I’m guessing not…”
You need to stop guessing, Leslie. Yes, they used to come when the sale was in Ohio. Some horses were no-saled or bid up just to keep them from going to slaughter, a noble gesture by a loving community.
“I’m thinking of that little weanling that went through Friday night and brought in a whopping $25… Would someone have paid more for that filly if the owner could have made more at a meat auction?”
Of course not. To small to be profitable. I was aghast when they led that little weanling in. Why breed at all if you’re going to just turn around and take the baby to an auction?
Colwilrin: Unfortunately, one of the selling points for any mare/filly is that: “If it doesn’t work out, you can always breed her!”
Jns767: Eventually that client will actually want to sell the horse, and someone will recognize his value as a gelded pleasure horse.
Jenny –
unforunately Sid will probably live out his days in that dark stall. His owner had already owed Jenny backed board when we left, and she had a long history of pulling stunts like that. Poor guy really is a nice little horse, he’d be a fabulous w/t hunt/western horse. Although I don’t know that gelding him would ever stop his hollering. We tried everything to distract him from that… vicks, earplugs, we even tried tranqing him at home just to work him. He isn’t as bad under saddle as he was on the ground, and he was great to work with other horses even though he was still a stud. Lets just hope jenny doesnt decide to breed him as compensation, because he is not stud quality.
Bill,
Yep…I hear you…often that is the thinking. If the horse doesn’t do well performance, we can breed her. You would think the next logical thought would be…to get another horse that doesn’t perform well. It is a crap shoot, and you may end up with the next world championship…on the other hand, you may end up with…well, just crap.
This is fine if you are breeding with the thought of keeping the foal, but becomes a problems when your intention is to sell them. In this economy, people are going to buy less, pay less, be more choosy about there picks, or just keep what they have until the economy improves. Until then, it is a buyers market and the highest quality horses are those that will be sold, provided they are priced appropriate to the market. This will definitely include those that have been nominated for the World and other Futurities. I, for one, will not consider a young prospect unless it is World Futurity nominated. I have to have the opportunity to make a little cash back somewhere in the process.
Jenny knows that offering sid as a stud is ridiculous. It’s upsetting to her as well. Apparantly the lady who owns him has been paying here and there, but of course seems to always owe. As for Sid, he has been moved over the the far side of the barn and is turned out almost daily in the mornings. He’s happy about that – but it’s sad to see him going to pot. He is soooooo handsome and you’re right, would be an awesome little hunt/wp/wtrot horse. P.S. I remember his riding sessions – he was better under saddle
.
any idea what she wants for him? im assuming selling him would go though jenny… since im sure theres a lein on him. his owner wanted 15,000 for him at one point… but thats just unreasonable
If you are interested, or know someone who might be. I would try and get a hold of his owner. I will find out from Jen what she owes. At this point, I’m sure the lady will take far less.
Jenny also has tons of horses that NEED to go. She is considering any offers at this point. She had a bad habit of asking too much in the past.
You are right though, the sale will go through Jen. If you prefer not speaking w. her – just ask the owner
FABULOUS STAND AND DELIVER COLT
Wonderful STAND AND DELIVER weanling:
Absolutely sensational dark bay colt, by the many times WC Stand and Deliver and out of RRG Trophy’s Tribute, the last producing daughter of HRH Trophyet, long standing producer of champions. Tribute is a stunning lue black mare by one of the breed’s most beauutiful stallions, Futurity’s First Edition.
This lovely colt, “Stand In Tribute” was foaled out at Raintree Morgans and is very capably managed by Barb Rudicel. He is curvy, correct, full of himself and absolutely beautiful. Stand and Deliver has a limited book of only ten mares and his offspring are not often available for purchase. To add to the equation, “Tribute” is eligible not only for the World Morgan Futurity, but also for the new $10K WMF incentive, as his breeding was purchased through the AMHA Auction.
This colt is a winner through and through. He has to be sold and is priced well below market and terms are available. Please contact me if interested:
Susan Overstreet
NightmusicMorgans@aol.com
Oops, sorry, I intended for the prior post to wind up in “horses for sale”. Internet grimlins…
May I suggest a modest solution for overbreeding? Set up an inspection board similar to some European breeds which will evaluate young stock and determine whether that colt/filly has breeding potential and whether it meets the breed standard before it is registered. We fight like cats and dogs over standards now, so we might as well set a breed standard that actually serves a market function.
Chris—-Best idea EVER!!
Having some arbitrary group of people decide if a horse was registerable would decimate our breed. Breeding fees would sky rocket, as would the values of the horses. The number of small breeders (1 or 2 foals per year) would dry up. So too would the single horse families.
We are a hobby industry. That means we do this for fun. Our breed would be well served if more of our members would remember that.
I believe the Friesian breed follows that system. I think to implement it after the fact, though, may be quite difficult, and I am certain there would be no agreement on who should be the panel to make those decisions.
I always wondered how the Warm Bloods breeds do the “inspection” process and more importantly, who gets to decide. As far as I know (and I could be wrong) it does seem to work for them. Does anybody out there have any information on this (just out of curiosity and too lazy to look it up!!)
Something along these lines was discussed on a chat group. The standard was proposed to be based on measuring the Justin Morgan statue (and possibly some other early prints/descriptions)and extrapolating the measurements into what they would be on a live animal. I’m not sure of the exact details, but it just seemed way to engineered to me.
Anything setting such tight standards would, I fear, encourage culling or dumping animals that fell outside registerable/breedable parameters, and thereby, creating a glut of “grade Morgans” to add to the already existing problem of abandoned and neglected horses.
Hi guys, I truly wish our breed would adopt a breed inspection. A key difference, though, is that in the Warmblood arena, all horses are inspected with a singular discipline (and type of movement) in mind (dressage/H/J). This means that they have only one standard to strive for. Our breed is so versatile, we would have to create “standards” for each type (show, work horses, etc). Would that be a good or bad thing?
Here is a link to the AWS homepage. LOVE the rules, but not sure how we’d incorporate them into our versatile breed.
Forgot the link, here it is:
http://www.americanwarmblood.com/inspectionreqs.php
Who actually does the inspections and how are they chosen to be inspectors?
It sounds like they use a training system for judges, not much different than ours: http://www.americanwarmblood.com/seminars.php
The judges are not from the breed, per se, but these registries are not “Breed” registries, but rather based on type. So these judges are judging w/the goal in mind that all of these horses are contenders for a particular type of competition.
Here is a quote from the Canadian Warmblood Inspection page: “Performance at Olympic Equestrian Sports is our desired breeding outcome (goal)”.
I submitted the inspection idea somewhat w/tongue in cheek..A Lippitt fancier and a contemporary Park Horse breeder on the same panel? (the mind reels). However, the comments have me thinking. (Side comment to Bill-when a Morgan filly goes at auction for $25.00, the breed is already being decimated). I think we are seeing the equivalent of the housing market crash. $35000 yearlings are analogous to $million dollar 2 bedroom bungalows in California. The only possible way a breeder can pay for a $250,000 stallion is to charge $5000+ stud fees or get high yearling prices. The prices have become unhinged from the intrinsic value of the horses. Accordingly, you have seen poorly-conformed horses with the “right” pedigrees flooding the market. I feel I can appreciate a good horse, properly conformed, no matter what the pedigree. The standards applied by a Morgan Kuring could be minimal, such as straight legs, no “tipped” croups, etc. Our Judges (hopefully) apply those standards to every yearling in-hand class. Those horses who do not meet standard do not become grade, but instead may compete/ride drive, but are not allowed to be bred.
Yes, you would have a 2 tier pricing structure in the breed, but that would allow the market to be targeted more accurately. This is what we do with geldings now.
We also need to do it with mares. Too many still have the attitude that “if she can’t show, I can always breed her”. Breeding “qualifiers” would not necessarily be out-of-reach for someone who wants to breed. There will always be show bloodlines, as well as working bloodlines. Individuals from each are, and will be, exceptional horses, properly put together.
Chris,
Though I wholeheartedly agree that certain horses should not be bred, I shudder to think of the damage that could result from even the attempt to establish that type of standard. We would have various factions pressing to include, or omit, certain conformational features. Someone is going to be unhappy with the result, and in the current Morgan climate…I could only forsee a lawsuit asking to have the entire standards committee, and their decisions, removed, etc….ad nauseum.
This would be a good topic to revisit when the current fascination with lawsuits has lost its appeal.
“The prices have become unhinged from the intrinsic value of the horses.”
Thank you! I’m glad to hear other people in the breed feel that way.
And I like the idea of a Morgan keuring with the standards just being basic, good conformation. We might not be able to agree on one type, but there are certain aspects of good conformation that transcend breed or type and you can certainly judge on those aspects.
On the other hand, a keuring judges solely on conformation and movement, correct? With the Morgan’s good mind being one of its selling points, it would be a shame to breed out brains or breed in beautiful horses with a few screws loose. I wonder if that something any of the Warmblood breeds ever deal with (or care about).
And all that said, I’m sure any sort of keuring would not go over well with the AMHA membership at large, but it’s an interesting idea in theory.
Prescient comments above. The market will eventually determine the value of particular bloodlines and horses. Unfortunately, our marketplace deals in live creatures and it can be brutal. The $25.00 filly may have been a very nice animal but her fate is the end product of a great deal of money chasing only some select horses. Those horses are not, I contend, necessarily the best examples of the breed but are those with the most intense promotion.
Happily, we Morgan people still like horses that can actually do something (as opposed to, say, QH in-hand or Arabian LIVING WORKS OF ART), so performance classes are still an important factor in the valuation of a particular horse. I have been absolutely thrilled with the growth of Hunter and Carriage classes. There is the future of the breed.
My suggestion of a type of keuring was simply to offer a possible route to reducing the number of poorly conformed horses being bred, while still encouraging a market for reasonably priced horses suitable for performance. As a practical matter, I rather doubt many Morgans would out and out flunk a conformation standard. They are, for the most part, well built animals. I don’t even wanna get drawn into whether a breed standard should be enforced by a Keuring. That way lies madness.
“Side comment to Bill-when a Morgan filly goes at auction for $25.00, the breed is already being decimated”
That’s economic decimation. Bringing a weanling to a sale where there is no market for weanlings is asking to get no more then a $25.00 bid.
In my opinion, the breed on a whole is fine. Our educational and organizational skills are lacking, but the horses themselves are just fine.
There will always be poorly bred, poorly conformed horses. When you mix genetics and human decision making, you’ll get a wide range of results. That is part of the learning curve breeders go through.
Once in a while, someone hit’s a homerun, and gets the others to dreaming. Case in point: Stoney Hollow Ice Man. Backyard breeders brought their backyard mare to us for breeding. No way would we have ever dreamed up that combination, but it worked.
What we need is better education. The judging schools are a joke, as are some of the judges who complete the course. We have even less education for breeders.
There is a mad scientist approach to breeding that can sometimes yield remarkable results, but more often then not, creates less-then optimum individuals.
Note: I include my wife is one of those mad scientists.