Anyone keep score of the judges?
By denu220 on Jul 30, 2008 in Uncategorized
While we’re on the topic of judges, I was curious to find out how many exhibitors actually keep a list of bad judges they would not consider spending their money to receive opinions from… Many of us are not showing 4-H here and have to spend considerable amounts of capital to take our horses to A-rated shows. Do any of you refuse to spend money for a particular show based on who the judge is? Does anyone keep score of the bad judges?
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I keep a book. Actually have kept it since 1980.
Every show I put the name of the judge and how I pinned with what horse. If I noticed any treands in judging (prefers bays, prefers more speed in extension, must wear necktie in western, must back readily, etc…) it is marked in there, so I know what their pet peeves are.
I also have a little rating guide next to the names, either a number or stars or a red check mark.
The red check mark is for those I will not show under again, and there are very few. It is reserved for judges that are highly inconsistent (you can’t figure out what they are looking for) and those who blatantly pin on politics only.
My secret fear is that one year OKC will have 3 of my red check judges!
For those that just have preferences that don’t include one of my horses, I will still show under them if I like the show, expect to not be their favorite, strive to have perfect rides, bring the horses that they have a more likely chance of pinning, and remember that I am there on vacation…it is a hobby, and just enjoy seeing all my Morgan friends for the weekend.
colwilrin | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
Thanks, colwilrin. It sounds like your “book” is very fair and objective—I like your checkmark system.
denu220 | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
I like the idea of a book.
I just keep a running tab in my head of judges I wouldn’t show under :P There aren’t many, but there’s a few.
hrhirene | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
i wouldnt show again under the judge i just had at my last show…and i won reserve champ! I just hated that she barely counted the eq patterns for anything when showing…we showed the pattern in the order she had us pinned just from railwork, and i NEVER saw her change her pinnings, even for missed leads, or breaking gait
anonymous | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
Right on— that was exactly the problem with the eq division.
Alicia Fraser | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
I thought the eq pattern was a certain percentage (not sure how much) of the pinning…
denu220 | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
It is funny that you posted this particular subject. A couple of friends and I were discussing that AboveLevel.com should have a “You Judge the Judge” section where people can enter a particular judge, score them, and give reasons why they scored them the way they did (good or bad). We thought it might make it easier for trainers/exhibitors to decide if they want to show under a particular judge or not. It might even help show committees in choosing a judge. We are still thinking it through, but what do you all think?
Black Eye Beth | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I think you will get a LOT of anonymous posts!!! LOL
colwilrin | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
You may get lots of anonymous posts, but so what? I still think it’s a good idea. Why not? The idea is to put out the judging and let those of us who pay to show evaluate it. I recently had a teammate’s mother from my barn lamenting the fact that her daughter was having such a poor show because the judge just didn’t like her daughter’s hunter. The mother despairingly said, “There’s not much I can do.” And I told her, “Yes, you can. You make a list and perhaps decide it’s not worth it for you to show Fuzzle Buzzle again under this judge.” She had never heard of such a thing. She didn’t even know some of the more seasoned competitors had lists, mental or otherwise. I think knowing she COULD do something (besides also filling out the USEF form, etc.) gave her a measure of comfort…
denu220 | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I think the online “book” could be a good idea. However, it would be most effective if the comments were constructive in nature.
Such as:
“Hunters - prefers rolling extension rather than more motion”
vs.
“Blind as a bat, should go back to judges school”
I think a list could be a helpful tool, as long as it doesn’t deteriorate into just a place to vent frustration.
colwilrin | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I agree; I think we’re shooting ourselves in the foot as an organization if we create a critial forum that is destructive in nature. However, I also believe exhibitors should be aware of certain judges that don’t enforce the “flat walk” rule in pleasure classes (one of my personal pet peeves) or favor Morgans with an extremely high percentage of Saddlebred blood over the traditional typey ones, among other factors.
denu220 | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
ETA: I love Saddlebreds and used to show them and win with them. I lost both my novice and limit rider status showing Saddlebreds. Now that I am a Morgan owner, I would like my horses judged as typey Morgans and not Morgans that look so much like Saddlebreds.
denu220 | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I really, really like the idea of making the book constructive in nature rather than just a place to vent frustrations. I would like to see a link to every judge, both large R and small r with a Morgan judging card. Anyone, including the judge themselves, could click on that person to make a comment. It would be an easy way for people to make positive comments too as so often we don’t take the time to that. It would be a great way for judges to get feedback so that they could know what they are doing right (courteous to exhibitors) and what they are doing wrong (rude to exhibitors.) I could also envision judges explaining extenuating circumstances (weather, time constraints, etc) or something specific that explains the choice they made.
Mocha Mom | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
denu — eq is supposed to be a percentage on the pattern,which is why it was so annoying that the patterns seemed to count for nothing!
I love the idea of a constructive critique judges’ book!
anonymous | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I can’t remember (and don’t have the rule book in front of me): does the pattern count as 40, 50, or 60% of the score? I think with Saddlebreds it’s 60/40 (railwork/pattern). Just curious… Or is it 50/50 (rail/conformation) like the championships?
denu220 | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I like the idea of a book, mine is all in my head which is a dangerous place to be the older I get… just like giving childbirth, you tend to remember the good and “forget” the horrid.
I also like the idea of a public place to post judges. It would be helpful when a new name (to me) appears to have a place to go to see what they like/don’t like… I might as well not waste my money going somewhere that the judge likes “park-hunt” for example.
Bette's Mom | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
Right on. In my opinion, former “park” horses don’t honestly belong in the hunter division. I ride field hunters outside the show ring and feel very strongly about this; it’s just my opinion. We have one in our barn (*blush*), but to me the horse isn’t a TRUE hunter but a former park mount dressed in hunter clothes…
denu220 | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
denu220 - I spent years in the hunter world, so I agree with you, parky motion doesn’t work on a hunter. I disagree though that former park horses can’t make it as a good hunters. If the horse can in fact go round and extend, then it could transition nicely to hunter.
Anyone remember the days of “park” western pleasure horses? No way, no how, should a western horse ever be trotting level or higher!
jessica | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
Frighteningly, I have seen a resurgence in both extremes, maybe not knee-over-level, but classic maybe, way upheaded, and striding like pistons… the opposite has also amazed me… pinning WP horses with a “mystery gate” - - -perhaps in the effort to go slower… trotting in the hind at the lope. But again,this gets back to judges.
Bette's Mom | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
It is disturbing to see the extremes get rewarded. Even more worrisome is that the correct stuff (cadence, roundness of motion, etc) is being emphasized by the instructors/moderators at the judges’ schools, but that knowledge appears to be getting lost by some folks somewhere along the way.
jessica | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
Jessica, I agree with you that some former park mounts can make good hunters. In fact, my old park horse transitioned and became a very suitable ladies field hunter! I guess I’m criticizing the parky hunters who have too much motion for a true hunter and yet pin high in the class. Perhaps they extend well at the trot or are well-balanced and rounded at the canter showing a true extended canter and flat walk nicely, but I’ve seen the absence of those desirable traits only too often and instead seen hunters rewarded for possessing “motion.” I know this sometimes occurs in the western classes as well.
denu220 | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I admit that I ride a horse that is kind of a “park hunter”. But he has never been anything but a hunter. He was never a park horse or even did anything else. He honestly is just a naturally high trotting horse. A lot of the time he wears no shoes in the back and still trots big. But he’s not one of the ones that only trots up, he trots up and out so he does extend but most of the time he trots level with no effort.
I don’t like to see some of the hunters that used to be park horses and they trot so high that they don’t even have that floaty hunter extension. But I do think a high trotting AND floaty hunter is beautiful.Like my horse, his gait is beautiful but he does trot very high, though it is natural. I think in the hunter division a high trotting horse is alright, it just can’t look too out of place. Some of the horses are kind of ridiculous. The western division,though, is a different story…
Anonymous | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
Any judge worth his salt should be able to tell the difference between a hunter that NATURALLY moved with a lot of roll to his knee versus one that has been shod up and worked for motion. The later should be penalized. If they have it naturally, do with it what you will, but I don’t condone working up to it.
Alicia Fraser | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
You’re right, Alicia. And the operative word is “should.”
denu220 | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
In the arab/half arab world they have on their website (arabianhorses.org) a list of ALL judges R and r with all the shows they’ve judged and the # of horses at those shows. It also has their “stats”, such as breeder, trainer how long they’ve been doing this and education etc.
It allows the viewer to then go see results at those shows and see how they pin. Judging cards from Nationals are also posted.
Perhaps AMHA would consider some of those things. :)
lilracheyb | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
That’s another very good suggestion,lilracheyb. Hopefully Beth will see this and add it to her suggestion list to be sent to the proper authorities in AMHA.
denu220 | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
Actually, MochaMom is doing the AMHA list thing, however, I think in the off season maybe we can get our own list/rating system together for the blog. It might be helpful this winter/spring for people trying to decide what shows to attend next season.
Black Eye Beth | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
I knew somebody had volunteered (thank you!). Yes, an informal list/rating system could prove very beneficial. Thanks Beth, for all you do!
denu220 | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
If you are attempting to enlarge the judges pool, a place for people to annonomously “report” on judges is NOT the way to do it. I do not have my card, but I do judge some locally on occasion. Last year I judged a show where there was a pretty cute, very honest horse that was NOT sound. I could not, in good conscience, let him beat sound horses. One of the ones that beat him missed a lead. I saw it. They fixed it without a big ‘to do’, and they beat the unsound one who had a clean go, limp and all. IMO a missed lead is not as important as a painful horse. I could tell, quite easily, that the exhibitor on the unsound horse that did not make a mistake was NOT happy that she got beat by one that had a boo boo. However, she never came and asked me why later and I didn’t feel it was my place to tell her her horse was lame without being asked for a reasoning on my pinning. So, she went home thinking I was quite a lousy judge (maybe I was, but I DID have a reason, and I stand by it:)and I have no doubt that if offered a venue to tell the world how badly I stunk she would have. Then, are you going to let judges come on and defend themselves? That would just get ugly. The point is that I had a reason and she didn’t know it and blaming my judging would be unfair, IMO, and few were there to see, so I come out of it looking badly. I think that if you really have an issue with a judge then speaking to them is a big help…perhaps there is something to learn and, after all, isn’t that the goal? I was once told that you can learn something from everyone and I try to take that approach. That said, there are some judges that are unethical or just plain bad and if you feel that you have encountered one, then fill out those forms! But, a free for all judges list is going to make many just say it isn’t worth it to judge so they can get a public flogging from those that loose and it is just going to look bad for our breed, IMO. We have a phrase that we say alot here (cause everyone is guilty of it at some time:) whiners are weiners:) Figure out a way to make use of what happened or keep your own score card for the judges, but let’s not have yet another ugly website under the Morgan name. Don;’t get me wrong, showing under a bad judge is a bad thing…and we’ve all done it and it is frustrating, but I don’t see this as a good avenue to take to fix it.
Additionally (I am not sure which “thread” this is in response to…I have not really figured out how to negotiate this site very well), I think alot of new judges don’t get a chance because nobody on the committees know them! Who is going to hire someone they haven’t ever heard of? That makes it hard…we just helped someone out here get some jobs because she is a more than capable judge, but was just not well known outside of our immediate area. Now that she’s gotten some jobs she’s gotten a great response and I suspect we’ll all see her judging throughout the country and adding to the judges pool. There are lots of small shows that have committees willing to try someone IF someone will stand up and vouch for them that they have a clue…and I think that’s how one can get started.
Stacy | Aug 3, 2008 | Reply
Stacy, Thanks for your comment. I think you bring up a couple of good points. The most important one in my opinion is the fact that there are “grades” of mistakes (for lack of better wording!). I was discussing this with another judge and they were telling me about which mistakes are considered worse than others and how if you have an obviously outstanding horse in a class of non-outstanding horses, even a small mistake can be overlooked (depending on the mistake made); much like your lame horse vs. missed lead. One of the problems that judges face is that I don’t think many exhibitors actually know which mistakes or horse “issues” are higher up on the importance scale; Things such as missed lead vs. ouchy horse, or tongue that won’t stay in vs. some other problem (I can’t think right now, it’s early!). I wasn’t aware of it and I am sure others don’t either. That may be something I can also work on in the off season. Maybe I can get some input from the judges school on that.
Also I know what you mean about the site becoming a nasty place for Judge bashing but I still like there is a place for exhibitors rating the judges. In your case, that was one exhibitor that would possibly comment in a very negative fashion. Given the fact that it sounds like you are an honest judge, the majority of those commenting would probably be positive. Although talking to the judge is helpful, I am sure many times the judge really doesn’t want to have a ton of exhibitors coming up to them after a week long show asking why there horse did poorly. They are tired and the exhibitors are tired…that in itself could get ugly (hehe). A forum would also allow the judges to comment themselves, and maybe justify why the judged the show the way they did, and expound on their philosophy on a whole. I am not sure how I will do it yet but I can see it being a positive force.
Black Eye Beth | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
I really like Stacy’s idea about helping new judges get more jobs by having someone vouch for them.
Perhaps this should be under the thread on “what are you willing to do”, but I think we need some way to help show committees find out about new judging talent, and take the chance on a new face. This will help increase our pool.
As an exhibitor, I would take a chance to show under an unknown judge, and would actually choose it over an established judge that I was ambivalent about.
Maybe an additional section in your rate the judges forum for “spotting new talent”…and the comments could be forwarded on to Regional and A-rated show committee chairs.
colwilrin | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
BEB,
while I appreciate your desire to come up with a judges list and allow people to rate them, I just see it becoming not productive. Yes, I had one person that was obviously mad at me…at a tiny show…imagine how many are not pleased at OKC. Let’s face it, a large portion that go thru those gates think they are on the best horse there!
I am just saying, you start letting people “judge bash” on here anonomously (not fair…the judge’s name will be mentioned, why not the person making the accusations…unlevel playing field, IMO)and you are going to make people second guess their decision to pay alot to get a card, leave their jobs,etc and use up vaca time to get paid little to judge and then get tossed under the bus on the internet. POSSIBLY a scoring system…1-5 stars or something like that, with NO comments…ever…but even that I tend to think is not as good an option as encouraging USEF forms to be filled out and not opening up this can of worms. I get that people are not happy about the NE judging, but, if that is the case there should be tons of USEF forms filled out from the show and it will take care of itself. I most certainly don’t condone unfair judging, but I concern myself that we are setting ourselves up to shrink the pool instead of encouraging more to “jump in”:)
Stacy | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
I do see your point, Stacy, and I appreciate the ability to “bat the ball” back and forth to formulate an idea.
I do see the potential for it degenerating into a feeding frenzy and that is not something I would ever want to happen. However, there has to be a way to hold judges somewhat accountable for their actions if they are being political when they judge.
I have discussed this idea with a couple of people, one who has served on a show committee and one who is a “R” rated judge. Both feel that some sort of interactive list would be beneficial.
Although everybody is encouraged to fill out the USEF comment cards regarding judges, this information is not available for others to see. Show committees cannot access this to help them decide which judges they would like to hire. Often times show committees change and new people take office with no clue who to hire. Other than an AMHA list to view and the word of mouth of people close to them, they are left high and dry. It is no wonder why new judges don’t get hired. If nobody has heard of them, nobody knows to hire them.
So how about this (I just came up with a “light bulb” idea). AboveLevel.com teams up with the AMHA and we do a blind survey via email. Questions could be formulated to obtain the information that would be useful and not just the thoughts of a disgruntled exhibitor. There are software programs that can pinpoint shows or particular classes at a show and obtain information without actually using the judges name in the survey.
What do you all think about that?
Black Eye Beth | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
I know I’m not Stacy, but I personally think it is a very good idea. :-)
Em | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
I also think it is a good idea.
And in response to Stacy & others on non-winning exhibitors always being upset with the judges that don’t pin them first:
I have been showing for a long,long time and have ridden very competetive horses, and not so competetive horses. I don’t think it’s true that every exhibitor thinks they have the horse that’s going to win the class. Of course it’s safe to say everyone loves the horse they’re on but I’ve been on horses that I knew could not stack up to some of the competition. It was still fun to ride them though, to see how well I could do because then it was much more rewarding if I got maybe 4th, 3rd, or 2nd. I could be like HA! I beat this or that world champ with my little horse!
As a long time horse show exhibitor, I can very honestly say that I don’t disagree with every judge that doesn’t pin me first, absolutely not. I think most other people are like that too. Of course, there are some people that think they should always win and get mad if they don’t (usually those well known people that have been the topic of some of our discussion).
People know when they’ve had a good ride or have not. I have a pretty good idea at the end of my ride of how I did depending on what horse I’m riding.
I don’t think we would have a “judge bashing fest” if we had something on here for people to rate and comment judges. I think we have already proven that we can handle these subjects in a mature manner. I have yet to see rudeness manifest itself on this site which is really great. I have no doubts that the users of this site can be respectful, honest, and as unbiased as possible when reviewing judges. I know that I can, and I know others that can and I have faith that all other Morgan show-goers can!
The only time I say a judge was bad or unfair or whatever, is when I know I had a great ride and others know I had a great ride, but I was not pinned fairly and neither were fellow exhibitors. I don’t complain about judging very often. I can honestly say I don’t use it as some kind of excuse.
The only times I can think of that I’ve complained about it is when it’s been a widespread opinion, like NE was this year. That’s what i’ve noticed with other people too- it’s really either hardly any/no complaining…or it’s LOTS of complaining. I really don’t think that people are ALWAYS upset with judges. I don’t hear too much complaining at horse shows, and if I do, it’s everryyyoone- so you know it’s a majority opinion, not just a few complainers. There have only been a few judges that have really ticked me off (this year’s NE judges included). One judge that I didn’t like (not at NE) was actually one that pinned me extremely well! He just was not a very good judge and in one of my classes he waaay overpinned me, it was rediculous, my horse was probably the worst in the class that day and I was 3rd.
Sorry that was so long haha! I just wanted to say that. Exhibitors don’t blame judges for everything.
Anonymous | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
I guess I have been following the wrong thread. I have been watching for responses to “What are YOU willing to do?” and most of the suggestions and discussion for improving and increasing the judges’ pool are in this thread. Maybe that says that the problem isn’t so bad because although we are getting some good ideas and great discussion, I haven’t seen anyone say, “I would be willing to….”
I like lilracheyb’s idea of making more personal information about judges available to show committees and exhibitors. Who would you have compile that information?
I need more information in order to understand how BEB’s blind survey would work. What kind of information would such a survey ask for? Who would the survey results be sent to? Who would develop such a survey and how is it useful if no names are mentioned? I tend to ignore surveys as being a waste of my time. How does one asses how good the responses are? Aren’t just the disgruntled people most likely to respond?
I need details!! Otherwise, I expect that we will be ignored by AMHA because the staff is constantly being asked to do more with less and everyone else is a volunteer with busy lives and other priorities.
Mocha Mom | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I am still thinking through the details on the survey but the end result would be either be posted on the AMHA site or here (depending on if I can get the AMHA to participate).
The survey itself would have a list of questions with answers like “stongly agree, agress, disagree, strongly disagree”; that sort of thing. Doing this via email or phone (expense is prohibitive on that option) would help get a better cross section of responses. If people are asked to fill out something at a show or online then it is generally the people that feel the strongest that will take the time to go to the site and respond. It isn’t fool proof, that is for sure and still needs to be throught through. Also I don’t think surveying right after a given show will give thoughtful responses. A person is likely to be more emotionally charged and less likely to look at the overall picture. There, again, that also has to be thought throw (obviously this is a long term project)
As far as naming names…the end result would name names but the survey would probably target shows for ease of writing the survey and analysis. I am not sure on that aspect yet. My “technical advisor” (aka my husband) does research as part of his career so he is looking into the best way to handle the survey and the data generated.
That is as far as I have gotten since about 9pm last night…I will throw out my thoughts as they form in my little brain!
ps Mocha, you might want to check your spelling…don’t want any parents mad at you!!! haha
Black Eye Beth | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
Mocha Mom- I would suggest that AMHA would compile the list of judges and their info. Since that’s the official Morgan organization.
Rach :)
lilracheyB | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
Oops! Sorry about the spelling error. I meant “assess”. I do proof read before I comment or post, but a spellchecker function would be a wonderful addition to this site. Is that even possible?
Mocha Mom | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I don’t know…I will ask the “Tech Guy”!!
Black Eye Beth | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I think it would be a really great idea to have some kind of survey to rate judges and it would be even better if that info from them could be used to help make decisions at shows about who is to judge. I don’t think the only people that would respond would be angry people. I think a lot of people would respond if they liked the way a judge did things. I know I would. I would give them a good review so that maybe we’d have a better chance of getting that judge at more shows. This could help eliminate the Morgan circuit’s problem of bad judges.
Kate | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I was trying to think of another angle to attack this.
Sometimes, exhibitors are unhappy because they don’t understand why they were pinned in a certain place. We have already talked about really bad shows with blatant errors, but what about the shows where there is a lot of complaining but nothing exceedingly obvious that the judges did wrong?
What if the judges, especially those in judging school, were taught to make certain notations on the cards. These would signify things like missed leads, poor poll flexion, mincy gaits etc…
The cards would be available for viewing, perhaps scanned onto the AMHA or USEF site, after the show is over.
It may help exhibitors understand what the judge saw, and also be a learning tool for judges to mark their own performance and track any preferences they may have.
colwilrin | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
colwirin — i think that’s a great idea! I know that for various types of hunter/jumper shows, they mark things like missed strides/too big of a jump/etc…why not do something similar here? I don’t know how that would work for the judges though, I know it’s hard with tons of people in the ring..
anonymous | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I’ve been thinking, always a dangerous thing, to be sure.
LilracheB, why don’t YOU form a committee to compile biographical information on Morgan judges? Perhaps other AboveLevel participants would be willing to help you. I’m sure that Black Eye Beth would be able to put you in touch with each other. You should be able to get a list of names and contact information of all of the judges with a Morgan card (both large R and small r) from USEF. Your committee could then contact everyone on the list and ask them to answer some simple questions that you had decided on. BEB could instruct you on how to organize the information into a format that she could put on Above Level. This could be the starting point for a category called “You Judge the Judges.”
Yes, it’s a lot of work, but it can all be done without leaving home. And if it’s really worth doing and you really want to see change, then it’s time to step up to the plate.
Mocha Mom | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I am not a morgan competitor, so I am not familiar with many of you but I would be willing to help out. I may not be the best person to “head” up the committee since I don’t compete (in the Morgan world), but I’ll help out. I made suggestions based on my experience in the Arab/nsh world.
lilracheyB | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
Our show committee did a survey to help us out and it was pretty easy. It was simple and could be used to help committees without comments. We listed every judge and had 3 columns…1)I would go out of my way or alter my show schedule to show in front of this judge 2) This judge would not make me change my plans to come or not come if they were judging 3)I would go out of my way to not show in front of this judge, even if it meant changing my show schedule. They put a check by each judge in the appropriate box. Without the option of comments, people tend to take a step back and ask themselves if theya re really THAT opposed to that judge that they would arrange their life to not show under them, or are they just a little irritated:) Also, we did it each winter…again, no recent show to have fresh feelings from. I know of a few people that realized how picky they are after they filled this out…”hmmm…I have alot of checks in the 3rd column…” and re-evaluated their feelings a bit.
Make that available to committees and they have some factual info. It worked well for us.
That said, I agree that this blag has shown itself to be very mature and polite…you can bet that if it became a place to complain about judges others might come on, even if only for that purpose, and change the tone a bit. Especially if people are allowed to comment anonomously. I stand by my thoughts that if judges are getting named and called out, then the accuser should be named as well…it puts things into context for others, IMO. Anonomous comments on the internet is a can of worms that can’t be un-opened. What’s there is there forever and for whoever wants to see it.
As for making cards be marked and available, you’d have to start having scribes or I think judges would miss alot. Think about the fact that a canter one direction lasts only about a minute or so. If there are 15 in the class that allows 3 seconds per horse to be looked at. Now if a judge has to comment on each horse they are going to miss alot and we are going to be cantering around for a long time:) Again…you want to learn about it…ask the judge. Most are more than happy to talk to exhibitors! It’s a great way to learn and to meet people!
Stacy
Stacy | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
Stacy,
I don’t think the judges would comment on every horse, but just make notations on things that stood out.
They must have some way they already do this, or else how would you keep track of those who you either liked, or who made mistakes in a big class of 20-30 horses like they often have at OKC.
Often in big classes, the top few will jump right out at you. Barring any fatal errors, I would expect to see no comments by them, perhaps just a star or a number 1, 2, 3…by it (however a judge notes their favorites).
It is the rest of the pack that is more difficult to discern the pinnings. Does anyone know how a judge keeps track of all this to help them decide?
I just find it hard to picture them turning in a card that is completely blank except for the numbers (in large classes)…but then I still find it amazing that waiters can remember appetizer, entree, drink and dessert orders for a party of eight people who all have “special requests”!!!…and then actually set them down in front of the proper diners!
colwilrin | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I’m not sure they do this with all classes, but I know that in the hunter/jumper classes I’ve seen Terry Jones-Brennan make “deductions” for things the horse/rider did wrong. Maybe when a horse has the wrong lead or the wrong diagonal points are deducted. However, large flat classes are a lot different from the hunter jumper classes. In the hunter/jumper classes there is usually only one horse in the arena at a time. In the flat classes, a judge can very easily miss something that is wrong with a horse/rider. Nevertheless, it makes sense to me that all of the horses/riders start at the same point. They then lose points based on “times around the arena”.
jdenzel | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
Well, I don’t know how they all do it, but the one I asked says he tries to judge on positives, not negatives. So, yes, an obvious problem does get marked down and something unforgivable such as a classic horse causing a scene (in a class big enough to have more options) that horse just gets a scratch thru it. Then they don’t have to consider it again. So, the card might not say what it did. Obviously yo have to judge a little on negatives, but a horse has as much chance to climb UP the card as drop down it as the class continues. So…you might come in winning and have nothing go wrong and end up third because the other two stepped up and earned “bonus points” by getting better the second way or whatever. So, you might have no marks by you, just the other 2 “passed you up”. IOW, I am not sure there are enough things that get marked to make cards useful. I mean, perhaps if a tongue is over the bit western or something it might be marked, but if you lost because of a wrong lead that would likely be marked, but, surely you know. It’s the details people tend to not know and those tend to be in a judge’s head more than on their cards, I think.
BTW…using “you” generically here:)
Stacy | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
My point actually was if you have a class of extremely good horses how do you pin them? How do you decide who get’s first, second and etc.? It seems to me the only thing they can do is to start marking the negatives since they all have so many positives. I own three dogs so I know all about positive reinforcement! But, eventually, it has to come down to who is best!
Janie
jdenzel | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
a judge told me this year, that they hear from someone who hear it from someone …
that as an ole rule of thumb, don’t show under anyone who’s last name ends with that of a color.
I found that a pretty histerical account of keeping track of judges.
Debbie
shortiedu | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
I think Janet Black is a very good dressage judge. I’ve scribed for her and found her to be very objective, kind, and fair.
denu220 | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
as it would be hard to judge a class with all extremely good entries, I don’t think we see that very often or at all on our circuit- a class with all outstanding entries that make no obvious errors. I’ve been watching classes for 15 years and I’ve never seen a class like that, where it was just like ‘wow, all those horses are amazing and i saw just about zero mistakes’.
I’ve watched some Arabian and half arabian classes and those are some classes i would not want to judge. First of all, my area of expertise is the Morgan so I would have to read their rule book but… if you ever watch say a hunter pl class at an arab show on their A circuit, wow. Those horses are very nice and I’ve seen almost NO mistakes from anyone in many classes. I mean these horses all have identical and consistent headsets, perfect transitions, they flat walk, beautiful extensions. Unfortunately the Morgan circuit isn’t like that. Don’t get me wrong we’ve got some gorgeous horses and I’d take a Morgan over an Arabian any day but I never see a class like jdenzel was referring to where all the entries are of extremely high quality and mistakes are few. There are quite a few classes where there are many outstanding entries but there are always many errors in our Morgan classes.
Kim | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
I haven’t tuned in for a week or so, but find this particular topic one that, most likely, will always be controversial-just due to the fact that judging is so subjective. Michigan Futurity does a fund-raiser 50-50 raffle at their show in Sept. You pay $5 to buy a judges card and whoever matches the judge’s card first, wins! It generally goes on and on and on and sometimes the classes aren’t very large!
I am a new judge, having just earned by small “r” this year. I am judging my first “real” show this month, and I must admit, I am extremely nervous because I know what it feels like to be 4th or 5th versus last…and it is important to me to pin the class as best as I can…which to me, means pinning the horse that is in front of me TODAY! I have witnessed many occasions when a grat horse was not great in a particular class, but still won! These situations do make it hard for those that continue to swing the bat, but rarely get a hit!
I am excited to have my card, because I wanted to make a difference. Now it is just a matter of getting the jobs! So for those of you looking for a fresh face, they are out here!
spiritofplay | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
maybe we should do an ask a judge! — do you pin more on positives or negatives? Both? How does that play out?
anonymous | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
In a class of nice horses where nobody has eliminating mistakes someone will generally “step up”. Someone, horse, rider, hopefully both, will rise above the rest and say they want to win it. Either with a great reverse pass, a fabulous last pass, something that sets them apart. And, in these classes, I would think you get to use some preference…you get to pick the one that you like best…Personally, I would always rather have to pick between 3 great horses that were good than decide which offends me most, the lame one, the one that doesn’t wear the bridle, or the one that does it all angrily. Best of the worst is not fun, IMO.
Stacy | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
good luck at your show! Make friends with the managment, show steward, photographer, anyone that might spread the word that you did a good job and are an option!
Stacy | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
Stacy,
Along that same vein of “great passes” thought, I think it is SO important to make a great first pass in the ring. From the top of your hat, to the tip of your horse’s tail…give the judge something to go “WOW” at. You will make that first impression a very favorable one, so the judge already will be thinking of you as one of the “contenders.”
The first pass is not one to be gathering reins and getting organized. Think of it like a job interview…get that first impression right!
colwilrin | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
Great advice, colwilrin! I like what Gayle Lampe (Saddlebred/Morgan judge) said in her book—you should look like you want to be noticed trotting in the ring, not look like you were pushed in…
denu220 | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
Denu220, is that book Riding for Success? I thought it was a great book! It was very interesting and had a ton of good advice for showing.
Em | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
It sure is! I even took her advice and treated myself to a full hour massage today :)
denu220 | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
I can imagine that was wonderful. I’m so jealous! :-D
Em | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply
I like that saying…one I’ll have to remember!
It gives such a great visual!
In my advanced years now, I’ll have to start writing all the fun sayings down. The swiss cheese memory is not enabling me to remember some of the really good ones.
colwilrin | Aug 7, 2008 | Reply