New England….Great Show?

By GoodLookinGal on Jul 28, 2008 in Ask a judge, Humor/Opinions, Shows, Uncategorized

I am new as of today on this site, and am not usually highly opinionated, but I’m mad, gosh darnnit and want to know if anyone agrees with me. Was it just me, or was the judging at New England really bad? I saw so man horses make huge errors right in front of the judges and win! For instance, a time out was called int he Classic Pleasure Junior Exhibitor championships to help a child whose horse was spinning in the center, refusing to go, get back to the rail. It took two helpers and the trainer. horse finished third out of 12. Open English Pleasure Championship. Anyone who saw it, gets it. What was that about? The first place horse was the only right one! And the equitation judges didn’t have a clue. How about a spinning western horse instead of a haunch turn. Or missing diagonals and winning a medal. Or blowing a lead on a pattern and winning your championship. What is going on? DId anyone else notice that there were almost nobody showing back in championships? And a classic horse should walk, and a western horse should back. WHat do you guys think? Am I alone here?

135 Comment(s)

I agree completely. I already made a comment about the judging under another section on here. It was very dissapointing/frustrating. It’s one of the tough facts of showing horses but it really was ridiculous in many classes. It is especially maddening because it was New England Regional! It is a great show and a very prestigious one- it can launch a horse or rider’s career to a new level and it’s hard knowing that people who deserved that didn’t get it, and ones who didn’t even have clean rides did.
I had a great show and a really fun time showing my horse and did not deserve to be pinned as low as I was (or not pinned at all). & it’s not as though my horse is usually not competetive either.

Anonymous | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
I was disturbed to observe at least one of the male judges not turning around AT ALL while marking his card, thereby missing three-quarters of what went on in the ring…

denu220 | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
I know I didn’t get looked at, and stayed by myself out of the pack the whole time. I guess using the ring well didn’t matter. Every time I went by him his head was down.

The Jr Exhib Classic Saddle class that was referenced I completely agree! We had a rider in there who had an amazing ride no mistakes and was pinned behind that horse. She got 2nd in the qualifier and I know there could have been number of reasons for a lower pinning but c’mon!

ErikaRose | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Yes the judging was awfull!!! It seems like s ome trainers could do no wrong it feltlike it was a political show if you were the right handler on a in hand class or trainer no matter what you did you pinned well. This same thing happened at the Maine Morgan show, the judging was terrible, horses breaking in front of the judge and winning the class, incorrrect leads pinning in top 3. Or better yet being in the Breeders Cup Weanlings and Breeders Cup yearlings classes and not only did horses win that did not pin well in the qualifer (again it was who the trainer was)but 1 judge did not even have the decency to look at your horse. I like alot of others paid money to have a judge look at my horse, my horse has been undeafeted in 2 years and not even get a look by the judge TERRIBLE. I am saddened to say that this is becoming the way the judging is going and makes me want to take a step back and rethink about showing. After all, everyone works hard for there money and puts alot of money into their horses don’t get me wrong you can’t win all the time but when you are in a class and your horse goes perfect and you see someone that has messed up place is is really worth it.Another example is the Hunter Division–since when does a Hunter look like
an English Pleasure horse!!!! Have any of the judges read the rule book lately! And if you look at the Classic Pleasure horses they are now last years English PLeasure horses, and EP horses are last years Park Horses.
I also think that alot of these Judges are trainers themselves–SOOOO in order to keep peace amongst the trainers they tend to have a blind eye when they are showing before them.

Again, I feel taht the judging is getting worse and it is starting totake the fun out of the shows, unless of course you have all the money to spend to go to the right trainer so that you can win no matter what.

anonymous | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Okay, I am going to jump in here. My daughter isn’t involved in equitation this year because her horse is just a baby. But last year she was in an equitation class where there were 19 horses (it wasn’t New England). They were told to drop their stirrups. My daughter and one other rider dropped their stirrups! But, neither of them won the class! In addition, a rider fell off her horse (and she had both of her stirrups), she placed sixth in the class! In equitation I believe 2 things are absolutely necessary to place. You must stay in the saddle and you must be able to follow instruction!

But, keep the faith! At Nationals anyone can win! There are three judges for every class and that takes away the subjectivity of the situation!

jdenzel | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Unbelievable! I didn’t think a rider who fell off during an eq class could pin…(unless it was the last ribbon for the final entry). That wouldn’t happen in the hunter-jumper eq circles!
Also, how about last year’s park horses being shown in hunter pleasure or even classic pleasure?! It’s happening more and more and doesn’t seem right to me. Yet, the judges, show committee members, etc. seem to condone it. I think we have some re-thinking to do as a breed organization…

denu220 | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
I am really glad to hear people expressing their opinions about this, especially about New England this year where it was VERY prominent. Everyone puts so much money into showing and to have a great show and not pin is outrageous. I noticed in Northampton this year that well known horses and riders pinned highest, regardless of how their rides went. The same thing went for people from big barns too. It was like if the judge didn’t recognize the horse or rider, they didn’t have a chance no matter how great their ride was. It’s so annoying.

KerryD | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
I will jump in here also. After watching too many classes to count this past week I do have an opinion. I have been “brought up” in the horse show world that we have to understand that to be judged for a class it is one persons opinion at that one moment and we need to remember that, blue ribbon rides don’t always get blue ribbons. That said I did see alot of what is being commented on. And I have seen my share of good and poor judging. My opinion is a judge needs to judge to the rule book, and judge that class, looking at each horse and rider with a new set of eyes. Not who the horse is, not who the rider is, not who advertises more than someone else, not who the trainer is. I think we ALL want that, to be judged fairly. This is a very, very expensive sport and to be given better ribbons because you are more well known by your advertising is not fair to someone who cannot always afford to advertise as much or at all. That said it is no secret there are politics involved at times in this sport, sad but true. And at times not. We show because we love to show our horses, because watching your child or yourself have that blue ribbon ride even if there was no blue ribbon, and because we have the most beautiful loving breed out there to show off!

bella92290 | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
I am going to email my clients tonight to see this dialogue. I have some very frustrated people, and while they were all very good to me about it, I know another trainer who lost clients as a result of the poor judging. After a while, clients get unhappy with bad judging, and they can’t change the judge, so they change the trainer. Like I said, I was very fortunate to have really good clients, but thats not to say that I think they will return to New England… I have one client who I think is seriously considering whether or not she wants to subject her daughter to this kind of unfairness. Hopefully the love of the sport will win out, but showing is a big piece of it, too big of one to have bad judges get big assignments. I am hopeful that finding out that this was very much across the board will ease the sting for some of my people. Thanks guys! When I have more time, I can produce some very specific examples of what went on there. Til tomorrow….

Alicia Fraser | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Well said, bella. I think most of us can also say that we’ve enjoyed the fair judges as well as cursed the bad ones. I also think that we shouldn’t have to endure those ups and downs as much as we do. If you have a good ride, you should be fairly rewarded. You should be able to recieve something tangible that represents you & your horse’s hard work. It is tough when you have a blue ribbon ride (especially at a show like New England Regional)and recieve nothing to show for it. And someone who maybe had a thousand mistakes takes home a blue ribbon & plate because the judge knows who they are, or who their horse or trainer is.
With that said, New England Regional was one of the worst shows as far as judging goes, that I’ve seen for a while. It seemed that things were getting better for a while but NE has changed my mind

Anonymous | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Here’s to the good judges! Sally Lindabury, Jane Blue, Tami Johnson, Jaison Von Ballmoos…. I salute you!!!

Alicia Fraser | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Amen, Bella. And I agree with Anonymous, most of us have had ups and downs with the classes and the ribbons. But, have you ever seen a class where all the riders have a blue ribbon ride? I wouldn’t want to be the judge of that class! Judges aren’t perfect either. I have to believe they do their best!

jdenzel | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Maybe we should have multiple judges at these bigger shows like New England. That might help to eliminate the poor judging like we saw at NE this year. They are always trying to promote the Morgan breed and to get more people to compete at our shows, well why don’t we fix the bad judging?? Maybe then new competitors wouldn’t be scared to jump in just because they don’t have a big name or ride a big name horse

Sandra | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Unfortunately, the judges have to take time from their own barns and businesses to judge a show. It’s a huge sacrifice for them to have to do it more often! It’s probably not doable to find 3 judges for each class for each show.

Jane | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
As a horseshow mom it is relieving to see all these posts that are similar to my own opinion of this year’s New England regional. My daughter rides in the hunter pleasure classes which are very deep in entries as we all know. All week she had the best rides she has ever had on her horse and barely pinned. She has won plenty of times before with her and was very upset that their hard work did not pay off. jdenzel- I agree that i would not want to judge some of these big classes but in some of the ones i saw, including the ones my daughter was in, i do not believe that the judge did his best, not by a mile. He could have at least attempted to look past well known names and actually judge the class. I saw (as many others on here have said) horses break and make other big mistakes right in front of the judge and still pin well in the ribbons.A lot of these kids did NOT have blue ribbon rides and recieved blue ribbons or red or yellow ribbons. It would be tough to judge a class where all the riders had blue ribbon rides- but I didn’t see one class like that at NE this year. Sorry, but i just wanted my turn to vent my frustration haha..

AnnoyedMom | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Jane, you bring up a very good point. We had a related discussion on the judging topic earlier this year (see “Should Morgan Trainers Judge Morgan Shows?”).

I really think it would be beneficial to the Morgan Shows if more people could be enticed to become judges. As it stands now, there is very little incentive to take on the learning process (low pay, time away from their own training horses, loss of revenue from not going to a particular show). This is especially true for the larger shows, like Regional Shows and especially OKC.

Black Eye Beth | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Maybe we Moms should be trained to be judges! Wouldn’t that be a riot?

Jane | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
Beth, I think we have to hit another milestone here with all this chatter! Kudos to everyone who has spoke their mind, and in a very open, honest but respectful way. We have a hunter so of course I watched almost every class at NE I could, and yes, that is how he judged. It was frustrating. JD, your daughter had some nice rides, kudos to her and her horse, they deserved it. I will say there was another horse who he placed low one class then I think he realized who it was and placed very very high other classes even though where we quite noticeable boo boos made right in front of him, the kind his back was not too. I am not sure what we can do to change that. Now in his defense in the indoor ring with 22 hunters, I have not a clue how he saw them all to judge fairly. But it also happened in the outdoor ring with 14. I would not for a moment take back any rides my daughter had this week, those were blue ribbon rides and we will forever cherish them, and these comments are certainly not to discount hers or anyone elses rides. We are tickles pink with her ribbons.
Thank you for the compliment to Sally Lindabury, Alicia I will pass on your kind words. I love her, might not always agree with her but thst is ok, she is fair, honest and judges for what she sees and I value that about her. Jason has judged at a show I am on the planning committee of and I have heard and have seem for myself the same. I have not had Jane Blue yet and Tami will be at Mass so that is good news! Somewhere recently I read (was it in the Connection) about getting others “trained ” to judge so it was not always trainers, not sure if I am repeating it accuratly.

bella92290 | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
I’m not from new england and made a long trip out to this show because my horse and I have been doing very well this season. Let me tell you, I won’t be making the trip again. My horse was amazing and we didn’t get a single ribbon. So much time and money went into the trip and I was beyond frustrated with the judging. The show grounds are in need of some major upgrades too but the judging was really the deciding factor, I just can’t take the risk again

Anonymous | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
I’m sad to hear someone say this but understand about the money and distance and not wanting to shell out all that money when judging isn’t done well… It just makes me sad. Hopefully, next year will bring a better show and better judging for most competitors and their horses.

>>>>Major upgrades? My horse chewed a hole through her (broken down) wooden door… Maintenance just came through and put another “band-aid” (board) on top of the falling-down stall.

denu220 | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
I have been a spectator for several years at NE. Most of the judges are pretty fair but when they are bad….. A few years ago, a certain hunter horse who had much success in the past was never on the right lead both ways of the ring and won. I was amazed. It turned out the judge ended up working for that barn at Nationals just months later. It sure helps when you are in the circle. I think it is so hard for young trainers to get a leg up in this sport. I think we have some great people like Jane Blue judging this year at Nationals so maybe things will be better there.

Peppermintpatti | Jul 28, 2008 | Reply
I am pleased with most of the judging panel at Oklahoma. The problem is, after spending the money to go to New England and have great rides that resulted in unfair ribbons, I can understand my client’s hesitation to spend even more money to go to OKC. I love the 3 judge system, and am hoping that that makes a big difference, but I would sure like to go back and redo New England. It was a bad show…. bad for the competitors, the committees who picked the judges, and bad for the judges themselves. I don’t know when any of them will get another assignment. And when they do, you won’t find me at the show.

Alicia Fraser | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Just a comment - Beth’s new poll ranks judging 4th out of 6 for reasons why we attend shows.

Anonymous | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I noticed that as well (poll results, that is). The way we schedule in my barn is this: We have a general rotation of shows we attend each year. In February, I send out a packet detailing the dates that we leave and come home, prices, transport fees, etc. Many shows haven’t declared judges by that time, but I think it is important that everyone has a chance to budget for the year, arrange vacation times, etc. so I like to get the tinfo out there. The flip side is, it is very difficult to then switch shows if you are unhappy with the judges chosen. I thought Lisa Cunningham was poor at OKC last year, but its New England— you have to go, right? Well, that will be the last time I make that mistake. I think you will find my barn at Children’s Benefit next year. Same week, shorter show, still get to show outdoors, better facilities, only one session per day, and its in the evening, and I get to put in suggestions for judges. So, I think for me, judge selection just got moved way up on my list of priorities. Perhaps that is the lesson we are all supposed to learn— don’t go to the show, even New England, if the judge chosen is a poor one. I am sure my clients will be happy to have a more reasonable show bill and good judging. Who’s coming with me? :-)

Alicia Fraser | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I am with you Alicia! We are going to Jubilee, i hope things are better there. At least the facilities are great.

Peppermintpatti | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I have to agree with everyone on here about the poor judging at NE, even though i admit that i was one of those people that benefited from it. I wish i could take credit for the great ribbons i got, but i know i didn’t deserve them. I had an aweful show but the judge didn’t seem to think so. My horse is pretty well known and has won at NE before and I think that’s the only thing that won me those ribbons. In two of my classes my horse broke a number of times and at least one of those times it was right in front of the judge. In another class I don’t think the judge even saw me once (i ride in the hunter pl division) because there were so many horses and I got buried so much. i still pinned well in that class. my horse is a bay with almost no white so it’s hard to notice him even in a small/average sized field, so i don’t know how the judge could have seen us hidden behind all those other horses. and when we weren’t hidden my horse was naughty anyway. i feel guilty that i have ribbons that someone else deserved

ShowGirl | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Though I don’t like to ever see bad judging…don’t feel bad.

For every “Christmas gift” you are given in the ring, you’ll get “screwed” at least 5 other times.

Some days you’re the windshield and some days you’re the bug!

When I am the bug…I take it in stride, and am happy that my horse and I worked well as a team.

When I am the windshield, I just try to be honest, as you have graciously been, and to tell those that I beat that they deserved to be pinned over me.

BTW…my happiest class was at OKC when I got a third. The ride was great, my horse was wonderful. What made it so extra special is that the winner’s trainer (probably considered tops in his division) said that I should have had the class, and told my trainer all the reasons why.

You don’t need the blue ribbon to be a winner!

colwilrin | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I thought I would just put my two cents in even though everyone has made great comments on this year’s “New England Judging Debacle”. I am a horse show grandma. My kids showed when they were younger and now I have a grand daughter who shows Morgans. She has done very well on this circuit and I’m her biggest fan. Last week she competed at the New England regional show and had just beautiful classes. Unfortunately neither her or her horse are very famous so the fact that she rode wonderfully wasn’t a factor. From being involved with horse shows since my kids were younger, I know that politics are involved too often in the show ring. You do have to deal with it but sometimes it is just so hard to. The horse industry makes most of its money from kids (4-18 years old). Kids are what keep this thing running. How can you get them involved in this messed up political game? I naturally want to protect my kids and my grand kids from bad things. How do people explain to young kids 6 or 7 years old that ‘you had a good ride it’s just that the judge doesn’t know you or your horse’. It must be confusing to young children. It’s never okay to have judging like at New England this year but it’s especially not okay when it involves our children. I know I don’t want mine exposed to it, at least not for another ten years

Sharon | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Showgirl, I am impressed with your comments above. It takes an honest, good person to write that. Kudos to you, and hey maybe it was not as bad as it seemed, it always seems worse from the saddle than the ground. Don’t feel guilty, you did not create the way things are. I am sure there are people with the same situation as you that are not being honest with themselves, it shows your charachter. I am sure you will have many more awesome rides on your handsome hunter.

bella92290 | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Sharon, well said! How can we make sure the people that are making these decisions (the judges and show committee members) are seeing how we, the people that pay for the shows, feel??? Anyone have any thoughts?

bella92290 | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Bella92290,

The only thing I can think of is to send a letter to the show committee giving opinions of the judges with concrete examples of why they were “bad”…and a suggestion for better judges, with examples of why they would help bring in more exhibitors.

If a show is heavy on Jr. Exhibs, the best match would be a judge who is very friendly and offers suggestions for improvement to the kids. A show deep in young stock and professionals, would match well with a judge who has experience spotting potential and raw talent. The trick is matching the client to the judge.

Hey, maybe instead of dividing judges by seat (Western, Hunt, etc…) they should divide by type of exhibitor (Open, Jr. Exhib, Amateur). That way the open classes can play the politics, and the Jr. Exhibs would get a judge that would provide more of a clinic/learning atmosphere.

colwilrin | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Well ideally there would be little to NO politics, regardless of the division. Horse shows are about rewarding hard work and talent

Anonymous | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Unfortunately, politics are entwined within our culture. It’s in schools, churches, business and even home owner associations! I doubt that we will reach the ideal of NO politics. However, perhaps instead of dividing the judges by type of exhibitor or discipline they have all judges at each show judge all classes.

Jane | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
As far as letting our thoughts be known, I believe the show committee should value competitior input. After all, if enough people are unhappy about the judging situation(s), broken-down fairgrounds, weather, etc., then those folks won’t be as willing to spend big bucks to return to New England next year. If that trend happens repeatedly with a significant number of customers, then the show could risk extinction. I think the show committee needs to know how paying customers/exhibitors feel, especially with sentiments as strong and unified as they are this year. At other shows, I was given a form to fill out expressing my opinions. In lieu of such a form, I think a personal letter (to Fred Nava, perhaps?) is in order.

denu220 | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Speaking of WEATHER, I was one of the unfortunate exhibitors, among many, who had to stand around in the monsoons for an hour and a half before the show was finally canceled for the evening. Unfortunately, I was not able to show back Wednesday morning due to a prior committment. To the show’s credit, they did not charge me for the missed class Tuesday night.

denu220 | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
About the letter to the show committee…. I think it is a great idea! My only concern…. It was hard not to notice that one of the three barns that dominated the show in unfair prizes also is owned by the president of the horse show. I would guess that as the president, he would have a lot of say in who gets to judge. Perhaps he has an opportunity to meet or interview this person. I don’t know how it all works, and that is part of the problem. Even if there was no foul play there, just the very fact that it would be easy and convenient makes for lots of speculation and leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouth. To SHOWGIRL… you are a breath of fresh air, and it makes the bad ribbons we were given a little easier to handle knowing that even those who were on the right side of the river knew what was going on and disapproved. You shouldn’t feel guilty, but reading your comments makes me even more angry at the judges. No one enjoys a badly judged horse show, even those who benefit.

GoodLookinGal | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I agree it is a good idea too. This is a very important show to our industry and to have it happen on such a large scale there is ridiculous and extremely upsetting. And who cares if the president owns one of the barns that reaped the benefits, it’s irresponsible management of a show and he should know how exhibitors feel.

Steph | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
This was not a great show, between the bad weather and the worse judging, im not sure if i’ll fork over the cash again..
Another thing that bugs me about the political judging is when a rider switches to a well known barn and does waay better there. They look exactly the same at the new barn as they did at the old barn but they win everything because they are at a big barn. Not saying they are a bad rider, they could have been a great rider that didn’t get the credit they deserved because they weren’t at a well known stable, then they switch to one that is and- voila! they win all their classes. it’s like judges can recognize talent unless there’s a name to back it up.
PepperMintPatti- who is the hunter you were talking about that used to win even when cantering on the wrong lead? just curious

Anonymous | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
*can’t

Anonymous | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I did not go to NE, but heard about it from many friends. Poor judging has become an epidemic within our breed. The judging school is run by a select few trainers who are imposing their beliefs and ideas on an entire industry. While there are often disagreements about which horses we would put on top and ultimately judging is opinion based, there should not be the amount of dissatisfaction that is currently present.

In addition to writing to the show committee, you should also fill out a judge’s evaluation form through the USEF. http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/LicOffEvaluation.pdf This is the official way to have your complaint documented and heard. You have 10 days after the competition to file the form.

It is important that judges who are not qualified lose their license to judge. If enough complaints are filed, a judge is reviewed by USEF. If we want the integrity of this sport to remain at all, we have to make competition as fair as possible for all individuals.

GraceMorgn | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Oh, I am dying to say but don’t want to offend. The horse was with a California barn and was sold to a Colorado barn. He has now been sold and I am not sure where he is. He is a beautiful horse but was very very bad on that day. Hope that helps. :>)

Peppermintpatti | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Yes that does help, thanks :)
Everyone should fill out that USEF form, thank you for posting that GraceMorgn.

Anonymous | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
HA I wonder if the NE 08 judges ever look on abovelevel.com! I wish they could see this

Kate | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
This was the first time I haven’t attended the NE Morgan in about 32 years. Sounds like I picked a good year to stay home! My mom and niece both showed and had a few okay ribbons - but I heard about the questionable judging and the horrible weather all week.

I just wanted to point out one thing from GoodLookinGals latest post - there is no “president of the horse show” There is a President of the New England Morgan Horse Association. NEMHA is seperate from the New England Morgan Horse Show Committee. I’m not sure how much influence, if any at all, the President of NEMHA has over the selection of judges for the horse show. What is important to know though, is that all the directors and officers of the NEMHA are dedicated *volunteers* who spend countless hours and personal dollars to promote the Morgan horse.

Let’s hope drier and more ribbon-filled horse shows are in everyone’s future!

GGR | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Where would we be without the volunteers?

How much better off would we all be with a three judge system at the New England Regional?

There are plenty of judges who are not trainers, but they seldom get the big jobs. Why do we think that is?

Alicia Fraser | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Alicia,

I think they are offered big jobs, but don’t accept.

Typically, for a big show, I would guess that a trainer who does their own trucking can bring in between 3-5K per horse. Depending on distance and number of show days. If a trainer usually takes around…lets do it conservatively…10 head of horses. That would be a loss of 30-50K for the show. Trainers count on this income as their “big money” for the year.

I would imagine it would be very hard to give up this kind of income for a judging assignment, no matter how prestigious.

Maybe the USEF needs to offer cross training classes. Morgan judges learning about Arabs, SH, QH…and vice versa. That way they would get prestigious assignments outside the breed, and would still be able to show in their own WC.

Kind of like a buddy system…you teach me yours, I’ll teach you mine!

colwilrin | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Alicia…my bad…duh…read it as “many good judges who ARE trainers”…time to get my glasses checked!

colwilrin | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I understand the part about trainers losing the “big money” by not being able to take customer to NEMHS. However, I think it would be an incredible HONOR to be invited to judge such a prestigious show. While honor doesn’t pay the bills, it’s something money can’t always buy…

denu220 | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Alright I will post as I have been saying the same thing for several years.
THINGS HAVE TO CHANGE
I am not sure how (I have ideas) but please bare with me.
Myself and my children have competed on the New England Circuit since the late 80’s. Many horses, many shows, many divisions.
The judging has been on a slippery slope forever. It must change or we will lose more and more competitors as we continue to slide down

WE are all guilty, not the trainers, not the big barns, not the breeders, not the millionares, not anyoe but instead all of us.
How many times have we seen huge rules ignored. Pleasure horses who did not flat walk, horses who would not stand to be judged, wrong leads where the judge turned his back rather than beat his best horse, Novice riders or horses who did not belong. Assistant trainers on the classic or Amatuer horse. Recently we even have bucking horses who have to be helped back to the rail, ladies horses who are bucking and being idiots, horses with bloody mouths winning.
And when does any one of us fill out that protest form. First we give the excuse its 200 dollars (we just spent 2000 on the show) but whose counting. Then we do not want to rock the boat or be blackballed. Trainers do not want to be ousted for making waves.
Even on this thread how many have posted anomously.
We all want to take our ball and go home but not one of us stands up. I am just as guilty.
I am well aware of a girl who teaches lessons and gets paid cash for a huge trainer and yet shows in classic or Amatuer and yet all I do is complain to my friends.
So what now.
I will say the President of New England may have got great ribbons in his barn but Jeff Gove is as honest as they come and never asked for them. I do not know him well but what he got unfair or otherwise was not expected and can you blame him for idiots judging.
But things do have to change
Mary Kuhn-Smola
Woodhill

Woodhill | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
A few ideas but I am not sure how you get them implemented

In all performance classes the horses must perform all required gaits. Then those still remaining will go to the “quality” portion of our judging

Any obviously lame horse will be excused as well as bloody mouths. Now this is a given but lately is not followed and should be subject to a free protest.

Another simple idea is to have each class video taped for the show committe so if a protest was filed it would be easy to prove. Knowing this a judge may be more apt to not pin and not overlook Mr limpy even though he was a World Champion

Make the penalties stiffer for those whoopsies like non novices in the novice class or non qualified horses in the championship. Or how about the non amatuers in the ammie class one year suspended from showing and loss of any ammie card forever

Whose accountable WE ARE.

Getting different judges has never been the answer as I have seen most overlook the obvious. Thats been tried over and over and its just a different group of unhappy people each time.

I do think that excuse I have heard over and over
BUT that horse is such a quality horse and the class is judged on 50 percent quality. So what if he was twenty times nicer than old Ed he did not canter. Or so what if he is a 6 time GN champion he was not on that day. Period. The class should be judged today and each horse should start out no maater who is his at ground zero. Then after he performs all required gaits then whats left can be judged on the quality.
If he is head bobbing lame today he is not the winner. Once bad lead maybe knock him down a bit but three he just should not rest on his GN title.
And damn it if you have an opinion and you think it is unfair write a letter from your heart and sign it. Do not just take your ball and get out of the sand box. Its the only way we can save our breed and the great people in it
Please help
Mary Kuhn-Smola
Woodhill

Woodhill | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Well said, Mary.
I am the first to admit that I see rules broken at every show, but never put up my $200. Its not the money. It is, for me, the fear of the backlash. I do not want to go against the professionals who have been in this longer than I have been alive, right or wrong. It is almost like an unwritten code among the professionals. It is especially painful to someone like me because I follow the rules to the letter. My classic horses really do wear 16 oz shoes. My Pleasure horses walk. I gave up my amateur status immediately upon turning 18 even though I was paid under the table as an assistant and instructor. But I don’t know just how ostracized I would be for being “the one” who files the protest. It seems this is a business best survived by not rocking the big wig boat. Maybe there would be no backlash. Maybe I would be the Hero of the Morgan World!!! Doubtful… :-) I think a lot of young trainers especially are taking an “if you can’t beat em, join em” philosophy that has me very worried about my job in 10 years. I have to sell horses, I have to satisfy customers. I don’t want to harm my business by being the whistle blower. I think it would be easier for someone at the top to call this issue out. But when you are there, at the top, do you want to isolate yourself from your contemporaries. I simply do not know the answer. Protests need to happen, but it will take someone bolder than I, I am sorry to admit.

Alicia Fraser | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
How ’bout we only hire good judges? :-)

Alicia Fraser | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I know that I, personally, probably won’t go to New England as an exhibitor again. This was my first year, and while I don’t so much have a problem with the judges (for us, I think the judging was pretty spot on… we won some, we lost some, depending on how our horses acted!) I really didn’t like the facilities at ALL. Our barn (or should I say TENT) was lucky enough to be one of the FEW that didn’t get flooded, but that was no thanks to the horse show; it was due to us digging trenches!! The warm up area and indoor arena are terrible to show and prepare in and the footing is awful no matter where you go. We had more sore horses than not sore horses by the end of the week…

Some of the judging made me scratch my head. The English Pleasure champ was one of them - what was going on there?? There were a few other ones, too. The majority of the hunter classes I saw were pretty well judged, imo… there were a few winners that made me (and the rest of my barn) wonder but for the most part it wasn’t too bad.

At every show, SOMEONE is going to be unhappy. At the end of the day, you are paying someone for their opinion. Last year we attended a horse show where the judge was happy to pin hunters that, to me, looked like trail horses. We weren’t happy, but at the same time, we took it with a grain of salt.

At New England this year, my own hunter did pretty well. But he botched his championship up impressively and, rightly, got a low ribbon because of it. I’m with a very well known barn and we weren’t done any ‘favors’. The classes we did well in, we had great rides or drives, and the classes we didn’t do so well in had not so great rides or drives.

IMO it’s worth a lot to go talk to the judge at the end of the horse show and see what his or her reasons were for pinning the top horses and for pinning you wherever he pinned you. We did that at the end of this show, and got some very enlightening comments.

hrhirene | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
One more thing—- I Always, ALWAYS!!!! fill out a judge’s evaluation form, for both good and bad judges, and encourage all of my clients to do the same. I actually got a response from the USEF in May about a judging evaluation I sent in. They do listen. It is free, easy, and necessary. I ALWAYS send one in.

They have to have them at the show office of any USEF sanctioned show. Takes 10 minutes, and is very easy. You do have to send it in with your name and USEF number, but I do not believe the judges get that information.

Alicia Fraser | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
HRHIRENE–

I was fortunate enough to get to speak with one of the judges. I too felt that I benefited from the information. Good suggestion.

Alicia Fraser | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
i, personally, cannot complain about the judging at new england in my classes. i placed very well and was extremely happy with my rides. but thats thanks to my horse. Hes a super talented hunter and I’m so proud of him. but on the other hand, there are quite a few classes i would argue the winners in. I saw numerous classes where horses would just completely lose their collection or break right in front of the judge and then win the class! Another thing i noticed was that the big name horses would place ahead of maybe ones who havent won as much. It sometimes seemed almost as if the judge was afraid to pin a horse who has been wining all season under another one because they dont want to be the one judge who caused the defeat of some big name horse…even if the other was better. For example, i completely disagree with the amatur park championship. In my opinion Treble’s First Take completely out showed Lamborghini in Black. I think judges need to follow the rule book and disregard personal opinions. Because judges may prefer one horse to another…but, by definition, the other could be the better horse. I believe that is what caused many problems in the judging at New England.

mickeymouse795 | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Alicia -

I agree with sending in the Judges’ Evaluation form! I, too, do that at just about every show I go to. I, too, get replies from USEF acknowledging my report. :)

hrhirene | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
But have you seen Treble’s First Take’s hind end? Gotta look beyond the front…

hrhirene | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Yes i have. She is at my barn. Even still though, in my opinion, she out showed him in that class. Just by the victory passes alone, she looked better. But, of course, that is only my opinion. I just think she is a gifted, talented mare and deserved that class.

mickeymouse795 | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I agree with mickey mouse. The rule book needs to be followed and those judges who do not follow it shouldn’t be judges! But, we need to be careful. Let’s not ruin it for all those who won and deserved it.

Jane | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
Sorry, I didn’t mean to discount her win. I think she is beautiful and gifted as well, and a lovely mare to look at.

hrhirene | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I think Lamborghini had it every step. Grace showed the horse brilliantly. Trebles is a beautiful horse but Lamborgini had passes that were amazing. I had him 1st Trebles 2nd Busy 3rd Queens Victorian Lady 4th then BKC Valiant star and lets face it Foys horse broke a bunch and had some really bad passes. She will be competetive but needs a bit more time with the horse. I would gladly ride anyone of the horses in the class they were all very nice. As for EP could of pinned a bit different. AM Park Harness qualifier Open Pl driving Am Pleasure driving. Now there was some stretches in judging.
Saw quite a few hunter classes that I could not understand.
When the third place acts up the whole class and then has to be removed from the ring as it is losing its marbles.
EQ Wow did not get that at all
Classic Jr Ex well there another one that you just wonder if they mixed up the cards

Park saddle AM should have had a work off for 10k or at least an additional trot. It was the highlight of the evening.
Pretty baby contest was even more skewed. Weanlings with umbilical hernias or just train wrecks in the top 10. Whose your daddy?? I mean trainer.
And that class had 5 judges. Thank gosh many of us had a cocktail before that one

But it is a really fun show. I am glad I am just a spectator. It is much easier to just laugh it off as one persons opinion
Mary

Mary

Woodhill | Jul 29, 2008 | Reply
I saw another show this year where classic champion had very bad manners all around the ring and you could tell the judge for whatever the reason refused to look-looked away- down anywhere but at what was going on. so its not just new england. the show I saw had only one judge and this judge certainly wasnt new. i quess its the unfortunate part of showing that sometimes classes seem to be pre arranged . When it does happen yes it is very obvious . but most of the time the classes are judged right in my opinion. Letter writing as in judges evaluations is the best recourse. I lose a lot of respect for all involved when it is blatant thats for sure. But I think most often it is just that judges opinion and things look a lot different from inside the ring as opposed to outside the ring. You have to take the bitter with the sweet. We have all been gifts . Knowing we have never asked for any makes my victorys or my clients victorys all the more sweet.

jyn | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
I personally thought that the equitation divisions were the most off the mark, with the English Pleasure division being not o far behind. I too was very puzzled by the pinning in the Amateur Park Harness division. I thought Silverheels Synergy had it by a mile. A shame he didn’t show back….

Alicia Fraser | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
Hi everyone. I did not go to New England this year, or most years as it is very far for our barn. I have been increasingly frustrated with some of the judging out there. It seems to me to be getting worse and worse every year. With the cost of showing being what it is now, I have started considering who is judging before deciding if I will go to a show. I don’t show for the glory, but I feel we all deserve equal consideration in the show ring. I am always fine with my placing if I get what I deserved. Why would I bother to show if I know that the judge won’t even bother to look up when I ride by?? That’s just rude! We all pay the same show fees, and all deserve the same respect and opportunity to show off our horse and hard work.
On the flip side - I am also on a show committee. At every show, and with every judge, there will be people who are happy and people who are not. This cannot be helped. Our committee goes to great lengths to ask the exhibitors for suggestions, and rarely get any involvement, suggestions or help in any way. It takes a lot of money and man power to put on an A rated show. We do our best, and I am proud of the show we put on. I guess my point is this - Please get involved. If you are happy with a show, let them know. If you are not, also let them know. If they continue to hire Judges who are political, or just do a bad job, don’t go. Choose another show and they’ll get the message. We, the exhibitors are the customers!

JoeysMom | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
Mickeymouse795, I know who you are! I have told you on several occasions (Centennial and Gold Cup) when and if you ever sell you horse, I want him! :>)

Congrats on your wins at NE, I am sure they were well deserved.

Peppermintpatti | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
haha don’t worry, you will be the first on my list when we do =]]

mickeymouse795 | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
I think one of the problems is judges being afraid to take a chance on a new horse or a little-known horse, no matter how amazing it is. Or horses from barns that are new. It’s as if they need to have some kind of name to make them feel ‘okay’ about pinning the horse first. They might see a gorgeous looking animal behaving wonderfully but not pin it well or at all because they don’t recognize the horse.
The thing I noticed in the hunter classes especially the ones with 12 or more entries, the pinning went in order of who was most well known, despite the performance. Some of the horses were very nice horses that I like, but they didn’t look great on that particular day but the judge still chooses them over someone who had a fantastic ride but no big name horse, trainer, or have a big name themself.

Judges need to just look at every horse as if they all have the same name, all have the same rider, all come from the same barn, and all have the same show ring record.

I have talked to a lot of people and no one has been complaint-free as far as the judging goes at NE this year.

hrhirene- you had the most positive comments on the judging but you also mentioned that you are from a well known barn but believe that you guys didn’t recieve any favors. I’m not sure if “favors” were the big problem at NE, the problem was judges pinning well known farms because it is a safe bet. They may not have been doing it to make people certain people happy (or maybe they were haha), but I do believe that they were just going on who has won before or who advertises the most or who they’ve heard of. Not to say that your barn didn’t do well, they probably did just as you said but they have a big advantage because they are well known.

Anonymous | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
Alicia says:
“There are plenty of judges who are not trainers, but they seldom get the big jobs. Why do we think that is?”

Colwilrin replies:
“I think they are offered big jobs, but don’t accept.”

I can tell you from the standpoint of being one of these non-professional judges (have owned, trained and shown Morgans for almost 35 years and been a breeder for 30, including several World Champions to my credit)… that’s simply BULLPUCKY.

I have had my USEF Morgan card for over 10 years. I’ve judged in Canada, England, Sweden and many states in the U.S. I’ve judged the New York Regional as well as many class A shows.

Every year, the Grand National show committee sends me the standard “Would you be available to judge” form and every year I reply within hours of receiving the questionaire, I have NEVER said I was not available. Yet I consistently see judges at OKC that only just received their R status, and have judged perhaps only the minimum required to achieve it, most of the time having judged only 3-4 smaller shows and nothing on a regional level. Or judges pulled in from other breeds (ASB, QH, etc.) that just happen to have a Morgan card (but no personal stake in the direction of the breed’s growth).

I am also one of those few judges that is very fluent in all disciplines. I have shown and won in hand, park, pleasure, harness, western, hunter, equitation and showmanship. You can put any classes under my direction you like and I feel I can adjudicate them fairly and throughly.

One reason I’ve been given that I don’t get more and/or larger judging jobs is that I am too opinionated. Which begs the question: Who wants to show under a judge without a well-formed, thought out and unswayable opinion?

Windenhill | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
You’re judging Mass Morgan, right? ..I’m interested to know what kind of horses you like haha

We definitely need more experienced judges at all shows and especially OKC. It’s absurd that they wouldn’t want someone to judge because they are “too opinionated”. A judge is there to give their opinion!

(I’m also with everyone on here that says the NE judging was ridiculous)

Stormy67 | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
I’ve got to agree with the last anonymous post that said judges need to take more chances on new horses & riders. I thought it was really obvious that the judges were going with well-known horses, riders, & barns. It didn’t matter if those horses had really bad rides, the judges would still pin them over people that had good rides on horses that aren’t that well known. A well known horse might have a bad ride or break or something and instead of winning, they’d get 2nd or 3rd or something, where if it had been a horse the judge hadn’t heard of, they wouldn’t pin them at all.
It was like the judges couldn’t just look at a horse and recognize that it’s good enough to win unless they’d heard of it or its rider.
I had a pretty good show and only pinned once. I’m on a horse that hasn’t shown for a few years and when he did, he wasn’t shown that much. So no one’s really heard of him but he’s awesome. He’s really competetive and..HE WALKS.
Our first class, he spooked at the mud in the outdoor so we didn’t pin, but as the week went on, our rides got better and better until it got to the point where we realized it didn’t matter how good my rides were, I wasn’t going to pin. In my last championship, I actually saw someone in front of me break to the canter from the trot and the judge watched them canter down the rail and pinned them 4th out of 20! Meanwhile, me and my horse were making a gorgeous trot pass behind them and the judge paid no attention because he’s never heard of my horse. That class was just awesome, completely clean and beautiful but still no ribbon, so I gave my horse lots of kisses and about 500 pounds of candy.
It stinks because I only have 1 more year of junior exhibitor after this and NE pretty much is my OKC because my family can’t afford Oklahoma.

sc | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
Windenhill

Please read my post about 2 down AFTER that one.

I had mistakenly read the question and thought it said “there are plenty of judges who ARE trainers”.

I thought she was asking why big trainers didn’t judge more of the bigger shows.

I agree that many non-trainers don’t get bigger assignments. I’m sure they would, if asked…and also question why they don’t appear more.

colwilrin | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
I know I certainly want to show under an opinionated judge. IMO I would rather show under a more critical judge so that you actually have to ride your butt off in the class to win it. That is what you are paying for when you have a horse in training. The trainer gets your horse ready, and you have to learn how to show your horse to its best potential. That is what I want to do, under a judge who knows what they want. I think it is the fairest way.

I have heard a former judge say that when you are in a class you have the stand out to the judge, the judge isn’t going to look for you. You have to have an idea of where the judge is looking, and use the ring around them. I always liked that comment. Btw this former judge dropped his card because he was tired of the “polical-ness” he wanted to pin the class how he saw fit, not by looking at the names or riders, or what barn they were with, but how the class deserved to be pinned. It’s a shame he isn’t judging anymore.

My biggest complaint of NE is just that, it didn’t matter if you could use the ring and show off your horse b/c his head was down the whole time. Almost as if he didn’t care to see the class in case one of the “top horses” made a mistake. There were 16 in my first class, and 14 in the champ, but very few riders were by themselves most were in a pack or flying around the ring or misbehaving. He would look up as soon as the pack was coming watch them go by and then put his head back down. So the handful of us that had really nice horses and rides ended up being completely ignored because we avoided the pack. I personally don’t want to go 3 wide down that narrow straightway on that footing.

He also seemed to forget about the class at one point. A horse darted through the middle and was fussing pretty badly, well he made us contiue to canter so he could see the number of that rider to “x” it out. Well thats fine and dandy but it was a sun beaming 92* on English Pleasure horses and 2 whole laps around the ring at the canter is a lot just to see one persons number! It was like he couldn’t multi task, ask for a transition down and follow one horse for a few seconds.

Weren’t we always trained to get a spot by yourself especially in large classes? Then to cut and pass as needed? I’m just so very confused after this show with the way I saw people exhibit their horses.

My other complaint is that I saw unsound horses pin pretty well. There is one note able horse that I can’t get out of my mind. It is with a huge barn, a really nice looking horse, but I have never ever seen it sound. It skips, hops, is inconsistent, and it is so obvious even non horsey people can tell that it isn’t moving right. I understand getting a little discombobulated around a corner and falling apart slightly but then getting it right back, (especially if it is a youngster), but pinning a horse first who skips every single step of the class is ridiculous!

erikarose | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
Did anyone look at how Jeff Gove did? I did, and he placed 4th in both of his classes. Does that make you think that he had pull? Get over it…. That farm has great horses, great riders, and great trainers. If I get back into Morgans, that is a place that I will look into!

Bothered | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion…but obviously you didn’t show there or you would probably understand, unless you rode at a big barn.And I don’t think most of us are saying that certain people were chosen to win because it was rigged or something. I think most of us are saying that well known people had a major advantage, regardless of how their rides went. I also have to add that 4th at NE Regional is still a very good ribbon.

Anonymous | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
Anonymous–

I know we weren’t at a DISADVANTAGE because we’re well known, but, I tend to think of myself as pretty objective - for example, we got some pretty low ribbons at times which I thought were WELL deserved and would have been irritated had we placed higher. I truly don’t feel that we were given any gifts at this horse show but that the wins we got were well earned. Am I biased - yes - but I try not to be! :P That said, my views were reinforced by the amount of people who came up and said ‘hey, Rider X had a great ride, and totally deserved that class’.

I might gently remind people that big barns are big for a reason. Usually they really DO present the nicest horses, or else they probably wouldn’t be as big as they are. That’s NOT by ANY means to say that smaller barns can’t have nice horses and great rides.

hrhirene | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
I got into Morgans because I fell in love with the breed, and I liked the seemingly more natural way of go in Classic, Hunter, and Western over many either “uphill” or “downhill” horses as they are called. I mention this only to say I have not been showing Morgans long, only 6 years (and I am now a “MASTER” - ha ha ha) but this is what I did the first year… I got INVOLVED.

I first joined show committees (they all need help and most need new blood), then ran for office, then ran one of the largest shows in the nation for Morgans.

Here is what I learned… egos and fortunes are tied up at the upper ranks and among the wanta bees (and the wanta bees are for more insidious than the big guys)…

I learned to pick a show or rather, to discard a show based on the judge, regardless of prestige, and would only show in NE again if they a)went to 3 judge system or b)used judges I personally believe are willing to be fair regardless of the owner/trainer/barn.

I go to shows were I feel, as an exhibitor I am wanted and appreciated. As an out-of-towner, I have never felt appreciated at NE.

I learned to appreciate the ride and praise our own good work.

I learned not to go back into championships, nor back to show under judges where your “style” isn’t appreciated, or your name wasn’t big enough….

Use your wallet as well as your USEF judges evaluation card… maybe, some day, it will work. And GET INVOLVED!

Bette's Mom | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
i agree!

Anonymous | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
As sad as it is, if everyone performs similarly, I can see how politics are marginally overlookable–after all, show results make or break trainers’ careers! HOWEVER, if a horse performs very well and is completely overlooked or places under a misbehaving horse…how can anyone ever think that is okay??? It doesn’t matter where the horse is from. It is to the point that I refuse to show my horse on my own for this very reason. BTW, I just have to say I LOVE Judy Nason and Treble’s Tanqueray. That would be my million dollar horse right there! He looks different this year…more streamlined or something, but even so he still has some of that old-style Morgan look. And how about Michabou Weatherman–the LOVELY new Lippett style western pleasure horse! Beautiful! Judy is a magician.

jennyhasija | Jul 30, 2008 | Reply
As a long time supporter of the New England show, I’d have to say that this years event was certainly the worst that I’ve attended. I brought seven horses to this years event, and will certainly bring less next year.

I pretty much stopped caring about one of the judges opinions around Tuesday, and focused on enjoying (and putting on)some wonderful performances by horses in their classes knowing that we might not see them take a victory pass. I can’t say that this dissapointed me though as I had long ago lost respect for this particular judge’s opinion.

So why did I go?..New England to me is a social event. It’s an opportunity to catch up with friends that we might only see a few times a year, and a chance to make new friends. It’s a venue where we get to see some of the best horses in the country go then talk about them all night long.

So why am I dissapointed?…The social side was akin to a funeral. We spent the week mourning the pinnings, the weather, the facilities, the jacked up fees, the abscence of the spectcales of years past (parade of champions/retirements), and of course the parties.

If there are any NE show committee members out there please take note. We don’t come to your show for the ribbons, we come for the excitement. I dropped a few grand on you, and you let me down. Give us back that horse show that we all remember so fondly….

anonymous | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I agree with anonymous, it was a dissapointing NE. The judging,facilities,parties, etc was deplorable for a regional show. As a native New Englander, this show has been like a point of pride. There are other regional shows in the US but ours is the big one. It’s the biggest and most competetive Morgan show other than nationals. This year was a real let-down, and it makes me worried that this show is on a downward slide.
I don’t know how we can do it but changes really need to be made. I’m a big supporter of the idea to get a 3 judge panel, I cannot tolerate the kind of judging that went on this year. We can’t let judges just run amuck at this prestigious show. For all the money we put into the show, we need better parking and better parties. The parties at the other New England shows are far better and they can’t be getting more revenue than NE Regional. Something needs to happen with seating as well, it’s a big problem especially if you come only as a spectator.
If the judging continues to be as it was this year, the New England Regional won’t have anything to make it prestigious because the competition is what does. It’s not the parties, it’s obviously not the facilities or the weather, it is the competition that makes it great. But we won’t get that great competition if we don’t have fair judges to look at our horses.

Kelly | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
It is great to see all these comments. I am just wondering though how a three judge system would be any different that a one judge system? Isn’t there a chance that the three judges could end up still pinning the bigger named horses? And what do you do if there is a big discrepancy in the judging. Do you get to see how the judges placed the horses like you do in Oklahoma? I suppose you could get two judges that are close in placing the same horses and one judge that is way off and throw out that judges score.

learning | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I would be in favor of MOS, same as used in OKC. It is more complicated than “averaging” and the Connection had a great article a few years back on how it works. But, basically it is a “majority rules”, and I found it not only fascinating to learn, but pretty fair if any judging system can be fair. I would certainly hope they would post the results. That is what makes it informative and interesting.

Bette's Mom | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I think a multiple judge system is advantageous in not only that it makes things more fair, but it also makes it much harder for a big error to be unseen, AND I think it has to alleviate some of the pressure these judges are under to get it right. I think a lot of times these judges see what horse should win, but then buckle under the pressure to write that number down over a very successful horse with a record. I would think that knowing that it is not your decision alone would make a judge feel freer to pin what they really think is right. But I am not a judge, so can’t really speak from those shoes. Not that I can’t wait to be one….. :-)

Alicia Fraser | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
In regards to fiing USEF Judges evaluation, a few people including myself did so after the most ridiculous judging at Maine MOrgan. Some were even followed up with a phone call. One judge pinning a certain trainer no matter what he did wrong, again another judge not even having the courtesy of looking at your horse in the classes he was judging, it was so blatant it ended up being a joke. Needless to say noone has heard back from the USEF. And this same Judge is judging at Mass MOrgan. How many people are going to go back and show under this judge, especially if a certain trainer is there. I agree with what has been said prior, we pay good money to take our horse to a horse show, wether we win or not we still would like to be looked at by the judge and given a fair shake not because of what barn or trainer we are at but because of the performance we had in the class.I agree also that the judges should relook at the rule book, Hunters are not suppose to look like English PLeasure horses and Classic horse are not suppose to be old Park horses. But no matter what show you are at they are always the ones that pin.So I guess it is partly our fault because we have allowed the judges to get away with this and the trainers keep putting these horse into these classes. What happend to the old days when a hunter was a hunter!!! Lets face it, some of us can’t afford to pay the big trainers all the money but we scrimp and save to have the trainers we have and spend the money on the shows just like everyone else. So why can’t we get some recognition as well. Back to the judging, I would not take my horse to NE or Mass and lost out on my stalls fees etc because of the judging this year.

exhausted | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
Just to be clear… the above post and the comments that (rightfully) were in regards to the judging at Maine Morgan… that was not referring to Tami Johnson, who is judging at Mass Morgan, and will do a fine job of it, I’m sure. She’s opinionated, but consistent and fair! :-)

Alicia Fraser | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
Well at least it sounds like you get to be judged by Morgan judges. We usually get to be judged by saddlebred judges or arabian judges since our shows are usually combined with these two breeds. That’s a real hit and miss type of thing.

learning | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
The ‘old’ hunters were pretty much castoffs that couldn’t hack it in any other division. I’m THRILLED that the Hunter Pleasure horse is now being BRED for and has become a thousand times more exciting to watch!

hrhirene | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
But wouldn’t it be nice to see more hunters in a snaffle than in a full bridle.other breeds do it, why not morgans?

marymoo | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I fully believe if you can show your hunter in a snaffle why not?! While I think it is great that 6 year old’s can conquer 4 reins, imo it’s a little excessive to have everyone showing in full bridles, I don’t even see many pelhams anymore.

I can’t find where she wrote it, but I love how Alicia explained what she thought of todays hunters. If they can have a big open ground covering stride while having a little flash use it, but shoeing them up to trot level is I think disgusting. I’d rather see a flatter knee that covers ground then a sewing machine hunter.

ErikaRose | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
Why can’t you boo a horse judge to show you don’t like his judging of a class. Refs of hockey games and football games get booed all the time. It would be one quick way to show the judge you are not happy.

learning | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
Learning,

We do boo…sort of…

When the crowd does not agree with pinnings you will often hear whooping and cheering for a second, third, or lower place horse. Also…there is the deafening silence on the victory pass of the mis-pinned winner.

This occurred last year (I think it was last year…maybe 2 years ago at most) at OKC. I remember a certain WC class where the reserve champion got a standing ovation, and the champion left in almost complete silence.

colwilrin | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
You are correct about Tammi Johnson, if my horses were going to be shown under her I would not of pulled my entries. She is a GERAT judge and am sure she will do a great job. And anyone that read the 2008 prize lists and looked at the judges knows it was not Tammi. SHe will certainly do the show some justice, to bad she can’t judge all of the classes.

exhausted | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
So use a snaffle. No rules say you can’t

Jane | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
Okay, I showed under the “other” judge at Maine Morgan. I’m practically a total stranger—he doesn’t know me or my horse or my barn—and we pinned just fine. However, I’m all too familiar with the aggravation everyone else is feeling (over certain judges, judging inequities, etc.) and hope as a breed organization we can do something constructive to improve it.

denu220 | Jul 31, 2008 | Reply
I agree new england was not judged well at all from day one.Everyone should fill out the judges evaluation form.I would not be one to praise other judges unless you have seen them be fair to all exibitors not just to sum.New england costs alot of money and should be fair to all.You cannot say what we all saw the show commitee did not. Is it about the money?Do they check to see if they judges are fair?I thought it was a joke from the eq to the roadsters.

show boy | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
As to snaffles in Hunt… That is what I ride with and many times I am the only one in the ring using it. I have actually received many compliments from spectators to that effect and I know of at least one NAME judge that prefers them over pelhams and full bridles… some know who I mean. You CAN have movement, type, and ribbons in a snaffle… I consider it bragging rights. I think some of that full bridle stuff is “fashion” and will go in and out just like breast collars and top hats.

Bette's Mom | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
Thanks you guys for the support on my judging. I’m really looking forward to Mass. Morgan. I have my pirate gear all packed and loaded!

As to the comment about judging ALL the classes, have you looked at the prize list? It feels like I’m going to be on my feet a lot. Not only am I doing the hunt and western (huge divisions), but they threw me a few more bones as well. I’m not complaining, I’m happy to do it and will judge anything they give me.

Windenhill | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
Tammi, what other classes did they give you? If any are what I pulled out of and cancelled my stalls for I would reconsider going. :)

exhausted | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
In regards to the hunter snaffle vs. full bridle debate– I have had great success showing my hunters in a snaffle. In fact, in 06 and 07 I campaigned a horse named MSV Star Struck to great ribbons in a snaffle. I did try him at the very beginning in a small pelham, but he was so soft in the jaw that he just got way too tight. The snaffle was the ticket. And anyone who knows me well or has ridden my horses can appreciate how particular I am about a light steady contact hand to mouth with any horse, not just our hunters. Use what works. :-)

Alicia Fraser | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
Exhausted says: “Tammi, what other classes did they give you? If any are what I pulled out of and cancelled my stalls for I would reconsider going. :)”

I’m doing Geldings In Hand, Park Harness, Classic Pleasure Saddle, Hunter Pleasure, Western Pleasure, Hunt & Western Seat Equitation, Walk/Trot/Jog Hunhter and Western Equitation and Pleasure, Walk/Trot Classic Pleasure, Specialties in Hand, Road Hack and Misc.

I believe there is a revised prize list out now and you can find out more at http://www.nemha.com.

Windenhill | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
You want to feel sorry for a judge?
Dwayne Knowles is judging Summer Classic
Talk about misbehaved, dead lame, bad bridles
I would hate even more to be him. Where do your start.I was with some saddlebred friends as well as Morgan friends. Now I know why the Morgans do not impress them. My comments were “are you kidding me” what is that gait called” A funny horeseman called one Morgans gaits the Trollop. Then we had the tracers. Trotting up front and either galloping behind or pacing (yup not even a rack) How can people even show up with horses that spit their bridles and hop around the ring. FUN SHOW
yup fun to watch and see some amazing Saddlebred or Hackneys definetly not a good represetation of our breed though

Woodhill | Aug 1, 2008 | Reply
Sorry to hear that Woodhill. How unfortunate for our breed….

I used to attend that show, and always had a really great one (Gee, I wonder why!) but it is so close to New England.

Dwayne will certainly see some great horses at NY Regional though. I encourage all who can to attend the show. It is the second largest regional behind NEngland and is super competitive, and well run to boot!

Alicia Fraser | Aug 2, 2008 | Reply
The trainers are sometimes to blame for this. They think this is the easy way to get a sale made or get them to go to Oklahoma or keep them from getting discouraged and it does happen that somehow certain trainers get a class pre arranged. THose are the classes where the judge nevers really looks at his winner or turns her/his back at all the mistakes. Certain trainers help to hire the judge, have themselves placed or there clients placed on the show comittees that hire the judges . I hate it so! The owner/amatuer doesnt even know that they got a gift. It is all covert. it really is sooo bad ,so not cool. . There is a show I know of where this happens every year. I cannot even look those trainers in the eye. Its dirty pool. I have been showing for approaching fifty years. You are not going to keep certain people from cheating or behaving badly. They are very very sneaky! I talk about it . Thats my way of dealing with it. I want them to know I know what they do and so do the rest of the honest trainers out there. They have gotten away with this stuff for so long they are not going to stop. On the other side of this issue, I get real tired of amatuers that run around crying politics every time a trainer with a nice horse wins. These are most often people who think they have an eye, think they know, really believe that its politics. They have not been at it long enough to understand quality and that ONE mistake should not eliminate the best horse if the other horses lack in qulity what the winner possesses.

jyn | Aug 2, 2008 | Reply
jny, I agree with you that sometimes people do cry politics for simple mistakes. However, I believe that most people wait until they see a horse that is trained by a “big barn” who is winning CONSISTENTLY but at the same time makes some major mistakes like going a whole rail on the wrong lead or an English Pleasure horse not flat walking.

Em | Aug 2, 2008 | Reply
I watched practically every class and talk to a lot of people. Two biggest complaints I heard all week, was awful judging and the extreme hike in show fees. Exhibitors say they spend a lot of money for expesive falling down or flooded stalls to then turn around and show in front of judges who keep turning around lost or just won’t look at your horse period. Actually, I heard grumblings a few weeks before the show about the hike in fees while I was at Maine, probably explains why Maine had a lot of people there that didn’t show at NE. That is a fun show BTW if any of you in the New England area have never gone!

The bright side, I loved the food on the infield! And Sissy and Becky on the golf carts shuttles are the best! My highlight of the week was Becky bringing me a baggie of scrumtious brownies!

Debbie

shortiedu | Aug 3, 2008 | Reply
Let’s try not bashing the pinning of the jr. ex. or eq. classes. My daughter showed at NE and did very well. She was crushed when she saw some of these posts.

emma | Aug 3, 2008 | Reply
Hey there, please tell your daughter not to take it personally, my daughter also showed and did very well, this does not mean I agree with the judging of the show in whole. Read alot of the posts where what people are concerned about are those who make major blunders in front of the judge and still place really well.(and those mostly being really well known) Which being your daughter is crushed does not sound like it appliest to her. So tell her to ride on girlfriend,,,,,and have fun!

bella92290 | Aug 3, 2008 | Reply
Peppermint Patti, see you at Jubilee! Best of luck!

jdenzel | Aug 3, 2008 | Reply
Emma- I don’t think anyone was ‘bashing’ the pinning of the junior exhib and eq classes. A lot of people are just very frustrated with the judging in the majority of the classes at NE this year. This is a place where we are all able to voice our opinions and i don’t think we should have to stop talking about some classes. One person on here already said that they benefited from the bad judging and pinned very well even though their horse was naughty. That person is dissatisfied with their ribbons too because they know they didn’t deserve them. If your daughter feels that she deserved what she got, that is all that matters. But I don’t think anyone should have to hold back. I think that most people know when they got a better ribbon than they deserved. Of course there are quite a few people that don’t realize it but that’s another story…
The point is that if you don’t have a guilty conscience about what you got, or if you had great, fantastic rides and pinned well- you are not one of the people we’re all talking about. And really we’re not even talking about those people, we’re talking about the judges that pinned them well. The problem is well known horses/people not having fantastic rides, or messing up in their classes and still pinning well. If that’s not you- don’t feel bad!

Steph | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
Steph, I understand your point of people being able to speak their minds. I think it is an important part of participating in a blog. However, it is very possible to bring a point across with enough grace to not inadvertently hurt anothers feelings, especially a Jr. Exhibitor. They are at shows to have fun, not to get caught up in the politics of horse shows.

I want to apologize to Emma’s daughter. I never would intend for this blog to hurt a young person. Kids have to grow up fast enough; they don’t need to get caught up in the negative side of showing. I hope her showing experience for the summer has not been marred. Please wish her my best for the rest of her summer!

Black Eye Beth | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
I don’t think it was any ones intention to hurt someones feelings, especially a junior rider.

I think the groups biggest concern is the show being fair to everyone involved.

I know that we always hear people complaining at shows, and we normally tell them to nicely “suck it up” because the ribbon they got is the one they normally deserve (even if they can’t see it that way). This show seems to have stirred everyone up. The parents and owners paying for the horse, the exhibitors, the spectators, the trainers, and everyone it seems has some sort of beef with NE this year be it the grounds or judging.

As much as some people might be able to see our discussions as whining and (trying to keep this family friendly) witchy, I see it as constructive. I think it’s great we are discussing these issues. The first step to a change is to get the issues discussed…….

now we need to follow through with the other recent posts in the blog and figure out what to do about it

ErikaRose | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
I agree with ErikaRose, everyone here has been very respectful & I don’t believe it was anyone’s intentions to hurt anybody’s feelings. Obviously if people read this who did well, they might question whether or not they deserved what they got, unless they are truly confident that they did. I don’t think anyone needs to apologize.

Anonymous | Aug 4, 2008 | Reply
I was horrified at the judging. In-hand, some of the classes seemed completely backward! And road hack, some of the girls who had great goes and looked great pinned low while the obviously overly strong horses, completely over speed pinned the best. Might I say that road hack is supposed to be light contact and without excessive speed…

Anonymous | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
Thanks “Black Eye Beth”. I, too, questioned a fair amount of the pinning in a wide variety of the classes but I would not pinpoint the judging of “specific” equitation and jr. ex. classes. These are kids. They may be from “big barns” with “well known trainers” but they are still kids. I don’t have any issue with anyone picking apart any other classes, just not the classes where kids are showing. I didn’t mean for this to become a contentious post. Let’s move on! :)

emma | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
This is the business, trainers now run the shows this is nothing new. I’ve shown horses for 25 years and to see what the shows have turned into, some people feel the only chance they have to win is in a big barn and the other can’t afford to keep showing there horses if they are not going to be considered, because it lowers the value when it’s time to sell. One way around it is to ask new judges who want to judge and will do a good job, what do you have to lose?
Believe it or not shows are hurting for numbers not because of gas because people are discouraged. look at these shows now compared to 10 years ago, now they’re a couple of farms with 30 and 40 horses an thats it the little guy hanging on for dear life hoping there customers don’t leave , how do you convince them to stay.
it’s not a level playing field, but what can you do? say enough is enough. If it is possible go back and look at the judges at NE,CT,MA,NH and see if you notice any trend for the last 15 years. okc also

jjoker | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
You got me interested jjoker! I’m going to try to do some research on who those judges were.

If anyone else can get that information please share!

ErikaRose | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
i can’t remember but i know a few names and you will see them alot

jjoker | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I can think of some that have been judging the eat coast shows for years; John McDonald, Karen Homer-Brown, Ben Qua, Euchee Matthews, Janet Briggs, Terry Jones Brennan.
Those are some judges that I’ve seen A LOT on the east coast for a long time. I’m not sure if I personally have any problems with any of their judging except John McDonald, I’m not a fan of his judging. He recently pinned me very well despite my horse acting up a lot and I saw the same thing in other classes he judged.

Anonymous | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I forgot to mention, on the morgan connection website under show results you can see who judged the shows along with results from 2000-2008

Anonymous | Aug 5, 2008 | Reply
I could not agree more about the EQ division. I thought that was by far the worst division for judging.

a | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
Emma,
I just wanted to add as a whole, There were some very good eq riders that placed well, but I felt that a lot of good riders that did not come from larger barns were very much overlooked.

a | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
I think NE has a lot of things they need to work on if they want to bring the show back to where it once was. I would love to see a 3 judge system, I just don’t know if that is something that is feasible. The other complaint as with many is the Outrageous pricing on everything. Camper spaces are the first thing that comes to mind. A show a week earlier charges $65. Now the show may not run as long as NE, but still triple that and you are still paying under 200. Stalls for what they are our extremely pricy (we were very fortunate to be in a great barn this year) we had a few leaks in the ceiling, but over all much better than the dreadful tent 6 last year (I was happy to see no tent 6 this year)…. That being said we pay less at OKC for a stall.

I love NE, and it is probably one of my favorite shows for all the same reason people have mentioned earlier, but I feel the show management is doing the show a disservice.

Anonymous | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
Agreed, it’s like they think the show will keep striving even if they don’t make an effort to improve. But that’s obviously not the case since I’ve heard so many people say that they won’t be coming back next year because of the judging, or the facilities, or the prices…or all three!

Deb | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
One of the best shows arounD talent wise, it is fun to see horses from other parts of the country in your back yard. If the show expects to keep it this way they must cater to every one. The thing that i feel is missing is tradition, there is know real mention of the real pioneers of the breed, go down the some of the greatest trainers and horses have come through this show. okc is the only other show that can say this i believe. Ed. the people through the week about the history and i don’t mean 10 years 25 years ago there were horses before flare and free spirit although that was fun to watch there 2 year old year. the hall of fame is great but i think they got current a little quick ,i’m not sure who was in it this year so i maybe off on that comment. every night they could spotlight someone or maybe a duel between to great horses.

jjoker | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
I think the true test will be next year the show will have to stand without the awful breeder sweepstakes. The barns that came for that may stay home, now the old guard farm are going to be back on top, maybe they’ll stay home . the n.y show is my favorite, i hate the drive but love the show if you have shown there you should, good show bad show you’ll have fun. FUN that’s the word that’s missing everyone can not win but you all can have fun.

jjoker | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
Yes, I have to agree, the NY show is one of my favorites.

Em | Aug 6, 2008 | Reply
I don’t think anyone is picking on anyones child. Just simply voicing opinions.
If the kid rode a good class and got a deserved ribbon then they should feel good.
If the kid rode a big named obviously lame horse and got a ribbon just because she was with a big barn then what are YOU teaching that child. What about the other kids that worked so hard and had a no named horse with a smaller barn and did not even get a chance.
I find it very hard to explain to the kids that the trollop is not a gait. That racking and head bobbing should not be rewarded. Do we want to teach our children that money speaks more than the hard work. That a big front end is everything (does not matter that the hind end skips)
I am sickened to watch a few big barns bring head bobbing racking horribly lame horses back year after year and actually win.
I have evented for years and lame horses are disqualified. I am not talking a bad step here and there I am talking obviously lame.
Another trainer talked to me and said ” Her kids sit there and say that horse is awesome” She must now say even though it won the park class and trotted four inches over level that racking step and very sore hind end is not awesome.
Not meant to hurt anyones kid in this post but to help those other kids who are being brought up to think its ok to show a lame horse and if you are with the right barn you can still win. That needs to change. Obviously lame horses should be excused, retired or fixed not just shown year after year and tortured because no one stops them

woodhill | Aug 13, 2008 | Reply
I don’t think it’s so much that big barns were always placed highest, but that those from big barns were actually LOOKED at. Like, some of the “unknowns” i guess didn’t even get a look from the judge, and thus when placing came, the judge couldnt even remember them!

anonymous | Aug 13, 2008 | Reply
Bigger better faster world. That’s it, i believe it just saps your energy when these horses go around cross canter hop skip jump and still get tied. What to do i think show at the fun smaller shows the open shows. Teach the kids what competition really is on a level playing field.
I’m tired of saying at least you know you had a good class. I think some fan get blinded by celebrity and flash, lets face this horses and trainers are rockstars and all the rules don’t apply. Its the same in sport these kids are courted at young age, they do not get treated the same as everyone else.
If you have a smaller barn and you say i thought i should have placed better some people will tthink yeah right you couldn’t beat whoevers horse they has a barn full of champs.

jjoker | Aug 13, 2008 | Reply
good luck - they won’t call you back - I tried

jc | Sep 7, 2008 | Reply
I agree - the judging was awful this year - Hopson and Matthews judged strictly by reading prior results in the Connection and never saw more than 5% of any class, and Waller is so friendly with one trainer that she pinned anything he had in the ring - disgustingly obvious in so many classes - amt. pleasure driving, classic pleasure driving and classic pleasure champ. to name a few specifically. I will take the advice and fill out the USEF forms. I agree with having three judges at New England and am willing to pay the extra costs to get a fairer shake. I almost laughed out loud when I got charged a “judges education fee” - did anyone else find that ironic!? However, the show committee did an AMAZING job with the grounds - there was so much water - and they worked round the clock to get the fairgrounds in decent order all week - you can’t fight mother nature but they managed to get the upper hand! Unfortunately Northhampton is the only facility large enough to accomodate the numbers we have for New England, so despite it’s awful condition it’s all we’ve got. I guess looking on the bright side, if they continue to select judges like they had this year, the numbers will be low enough to change the venue to the Eastern States Expo in Springfield! On the other hand - Mass Morgan was redemption - Tami Johnson judged by the standards and got political in tying the name/trainer unfairly only a couple of times - overall she did a great job and I’d show under her again anytime! Whether you like Phil Price or not, he will always give you a fair look and doesn’t get into the politcal crap - so kudos to him as well.

jc | Sep 7, 2008 | Reply
Since I’m here to defend myself, I can tell you that politics had/has no place my MY ring. “A couple of times” probably means there were instances where you were not up close and personal to the horses in the ring as I was, and I likely was balancing my 50/50 percentages. Simply because one or two classes weren’t tied as YOU might have tied them (judging from the rail, which is a completely different perspective from center ring), doesn’t mean it was politics.

Tami Johnson, 2008 Mass. Morgan Judge

Windenhill | Sep 8, 2008 | Reply
BTW, I don’t mean to seem ungrateful… thank you for the other nice things said.

tami

Windenhill | Sep 8, 2008 | Reply
Yeah I completly agree with the judging at New England this year. It is one of the biggest shows of the year and they get horrible judges! Did anyone see the road hack class. There was one person in it that was out of control galloping and she bumped into another horse right infront of the judge and she still placed! New England is my favorite show but having judges that don’t know what they are doing just ruins it.

KayITM | Nov 9, 2008 | Reply

New England….Great Show?

135 Comment(s)

Post a Comment

Login (Case Sensitive)

Categories